Portland, Tennessee Blog

And what if we don't want to comment on your TAX ELECTIONS POST?

Now Daniel that statement is definately original..../ and False

I am starting a new TAXES ELECTION POLITICS thread, this one has now over 200 comments, continue on as usual on the new post. I will copy and paste about the last 10 or so comments from here to the new posting. Thanks - Judy

Because everytime dems question Repugs, we get drug through the mud...i.e. Palin and her knocked up 10 year old...

I look a the attempt people make when running. One of the things I noticed was when you go to McCain's website all you get is about how he was tortured, how old he is and how he's some great war hero.

You go to Obama's site and you actually get info on what his plans are for the future.

Listen say McCain has history so they talk about it. But if history is what he's gonna talk about why not mention more about how he's voted in the past, and the things he's actually donefor this country in an office instead of only with a gun.

I'm all for a change and I don't just mean people, skin, history, etc. I mean change to democrats. If all you ever had was one party in as president you've never have this country represented evenly all the time because there obviously is a huge split in this country and it needs to reflect in it's leaders as well.

I do like Obama's energy plan more than McCain's as well.

McCain = more of the same
Obama = a brighter future

Resolved: Democrats are better for the economy than the Republicans.

http://www.slate.com/id/2199810/

Greater increase in GDP, less inflation, less unemployment, less federal spending, less spending (minus defense), and less federal debt. Democrats did bring in more federal taxes and surprise, more defense spending.

We got a fever and there is only one cure: Barack Obama baby. Vote for the future.

Umm Daniel, Who's O'Reilly? You said the Republicans Pushed and the Dems Passed (I said fall) obviously they might need a backbone if they allow the Republicans to push them around if they think it isn't right!! thats my thoughts, along with the drunk and spineless, and for the pork barrell, I am referring to your oinking!! Original.... you bet your bootie it is!

Ha Judy, keep on with the words you heard on O'Reilly last night, original.

OH Daniel, Smack, Smack, Smack!! You're starting to Squeeeeeelllll! Besides that.... The Dems need to grow a BACKBONE then and NOT cave in if they feel it ain't right!! But the Republicans are the ones to blame! hummm Republicans PUSH and Democrats FALL, what's that say for your party? Drunk, Spineless or they're too busy tending to the Pork Barrell to care.

Republicans have no idea about how to run an economy. Look at your very state Judy. Just last year all the Republicans were whining about the state's surplus. They pushed to get the sales tax lowered, which the dems did very stupidly. And now what? State departments are being asked to cut their operating budgets by three percent due to a sales tax shortfall. The problem is republicans want less government, less tax. But they don't have any plans to restore the jobs lost when taxes go away, because cutting a budget by three percent means less books at the library, less teachers in school...less...less...less...To even say anything about our economy being good at this point shows you're out of touch, which McCain is. He's been in Washington so long he knows nothing else. By the way, I think Obama was right about Palin, oink oink...

Yes Daniel he did..... Followed by, but this Country is facing some very difficult times! Just like the media you failed to finish the sentence! It's all in how you interpret it, much like Obama says he wasn't calling Sarah Palin a Pig.... McCain wasn't saying we have nothing to worry about it's all fine!! Smack! Smack! ouch that hurt! Kinda hollow sounding Daniel must be you're up too early this morning! :)

Come on now, I've at least voted for a few repugs in my life. How many Dems have you voted for Senor Coker? I love how genius McCain came out the other day and said the fundamentals of the U.S. economy are fine. Maybe his wife's hand really got hurt from smacking him across the head for talking...

On the lighter side of the election, McCain gets Rick-Rolled at the convention by Barack Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TiQCJXpbKg

Also, did anyone see Tina Fey do Sarah Palin on Saturday Night Live? She was spot on and looks just like her:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/34465/saturday-night-live-palin--hillary-open

LOL, Tim Coker, I don't know perhaps this post is getting too long, I know it takes forever to scroll to the bottom of the page to type in a response. I'll take care of the duplicates... ahhh maybe I'll leave them, na na Daniel! j/k

Is anyone else having problems with the blog sending you to a can not connect page, but still posting the comment? Sorry for the multiple post.

DANIEL.... TRIES TO BE NONPARTISAN!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Ouch, my sides hurt. Heheheheheheheheheheheheeeeeee, *gasp* oh, I can't breathe. Oh, man I needed that good laugh. Nonpartisan Daniel Suddeath is the very definition of oxymoron. That's like a dung beetle saying I try to keep my hands clean. Oh, that was a good one Daniel. Oh, by the way, I'm whipping you in fantasy football.

I try to be non-partisan too, but McCain is too much like Bush, and we've seen what that led to. I'm sorry about the abortion issue, I don't believe in it, but it's never going to change. Abortion will remain legal in this country regardless of who is president. Let me ask you this, why is different to support a war where teens are sent overseas to die for oil and money and to be against abortion? They both seem like murder to me.

Prom:
Everyone has key issues that will sway their vote in the presidential election and mine happens to be abortion.
When they call it Pro-Choice I laugh because it is only a choice for the woman. It isn't a choice for the baby.
Abortion isn't suppose to be birth control. If women don't want to get pregnant (except for cases of rape or incest) they should keep their legs closed.

Yes,I do have children one of which will be a Naval officer when he finishes his degree at Auburn.I cannot think of anyone better for him to serve at the pleasure of than John McCain.The way he handled himself as a prisoner of war should be an example to all young men of true character.Will he make mistakes as president,sure,but so would Obama.I am a republican,but didn't know if I would vote that way this election.But now I know.I will vote McCain/Palin.Regardless of who wins it will take true bipartisan efforts to bring America back to its former glory.As for this country's problems,no one man is to blame.They are the result of many things brought about by many people,government and citizens alike.We,as a people,are too selfish to look at what will need to be done to right this ship.We are only concerned with our own lives as individuals.Whoever becomes President,let's get behind him and show the world that we are still a glorious country.

In case you haven't seen this (lol):

I was talking to a friend of mine's little girl the other day. I asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up and she replied, 'I want to be President!' Both of her parents are liberal Democrats and were standing there. So then I asked her, 'If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?'

She replied, 'I'd give houses to all the homeless people.'

'Wow - what a worthy goal.' I told her, 'You don't have to wait until you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I'll pay you $50. Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where this homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward a new house.'

Since she is only 6, she thought that over for a few seconds. While her Mom glared at me, the little girl looked me straight in the eye and asked, 'Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?'

And I said, 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'

Terry, do you have kids or grandchildren? Do you want them to always be able to afford food, shelter, clothing, and protection? Do you want them to live in a country that is strong and respected around the world?

George W. Bush doubled the national debt. Doubled. The US dollar has tanked below the Euro, the Canadian dollar during the Bush administration. We have lost the moral authority to lead in with world with Bush's manufactured Iraq war and the torture. Turn on the news today and look what is happening in the financial world. Republicans have been deregulating and deregulating and now look where it has left us.

The Republicans have betrayed this country and are destroying our prosperity. The real B.S. are those who would give them a pass this election and put a Republican back in the White House.

Terry, if you are not outraged at George W. Bush, the Republican party and John McCain, you don't know what is going on in the country.

BRAVO to Terry George!! Now that is an intelligent Comment!

Ya know what I would like to see out of this election?Both sides putting away all their bitterness and petty B.S. and focusing on getting the problems this country faces taken care of.To hell with all that our party is better than yours.Were all AMERICANS.Focus on US,the American people.

Bush sure did a great job of getting rid of abortion?!?

Portland Fan,

While opposing the Republican Party and their economic and social policies of the last 30 years is what most motivates me in this election, I'm also very enthusiastic about our nominee Barack Obama. His judgment, integrity and vision are exactly what the country needs at this time. His ability to mobilize the young voters of this country is exactly what we need, because they are the ones whose lives are going to be affected most by the policies of the next administration.

Our country faces grave financial problems over the next decade. We aren't going to solve those problems with trickle down economics and continuing to push for tax cuts that merely transfer debt over to future generations.

We need a president who can inspire the country to make sacrifices necessary to save the future for our children and grandchildren.

John McCain has caved into nearly every Bush policy in an attempt to save this election. He's given in on financial responsibility promising even larger debt, he's caved on torture, and the list goes on and on.

Like I wrote previously, a definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Don't vote for insanity, aka McCain/Palin. If you believe the last eight years were wrong for America, you have only one choice in November: Barack Obama.

Portland Fan:

This is why Barack Obama should be president:

I want my children to grow up in an America that is more prosperous and more conducive to the pursuit of happiness than the America of my youth.

I want my children to grow up in an America where common middle class can feasibly live the fabled American Dream.

I want my children to grow up in a world where the United States continues to be the premier economic superpower, and a model to the rest of the world for human rights, democratic government and sustainable living.

The Republican Party is the party that values short-term policies for the pursuit of political power. They are the party of debt. They are the party that supports torture. They are the party of unsustainable living.

A definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." A vote for John McCain is an insane vote.

But, if you want the country to pass laws that force girls to go through 9 months of pregnancy to give birth to the child of a rapist, to allow wives to die because a pregnancy threatens her life, young women to be scared for life after undergoing risky abortions in illegal clinics, and politicians to take away a woman's right to make decisions about their own bodies, that is your right.

I would prefer to pass policies to keep abortions rare, and allow women other options, but allow women to be sovereigns of their own bodies without the interference of a meddlesome government in private affairs.

Prom:

Please throw away all the web site induced one liners and all the campaign rhetoric and tell me the truth...Why should Barack Obama be president?

Your answer should be simple and one statement?
Can you do that?

I will tell you why I am NOT voting for Obama...He is pro-choice and I will not support anyone who doesn't support the unborn.

I have heard that Diane Black is refusing to take part in public debates with her opponent Jim Hawkins. Why is that? It also appears that Debra Maggert is doing the same, refusing to debate her opponent Andy Allman.

What do they have to hide? I guess we could all look at their voting records to see what they are afraid of defending.

Something smells fishy!

Sarah Palin's head must hurt in the evening from the daily cram sessions in U.S. and foreign policy. McCain is not allowing her to give any press conferences and very limited media interviews. "Training wheels we can believe in," I believe I read somewhere. She is definitely not ready on day one. She does a pretty good job of winging her interview with Charlie Gibson of ABC, but he stumps her when he asks her about the "The Bush Doctrine."
http://www.slate.com/id/2199999
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU

I like the bumper sticker that reads: "If you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention."

A lot of people have been sleepwalking the last eight years and if we elect McCain they are going to walk us right off a cliff. After eight years of Bush an alert and informed public would have sent the Republican Party the way of the Whigs.

And it probably will be. If we get Obama........

Have you seen the jobless rate, gas rate or inflation rate of Bush? Could it be much worse? Oh yeah, if we get McCain probably

Saw a great bumper sticker today:

Obama for Change?
That's all you'll have left in your pockets!

Oh we are, we're just letting everybody have a few years to catch up. But I don't have time to think about that now, I'm probably running Tim's campaign next year...vote Tim or get stuck with Pa-lin...if he runs that it is

Oh we are, we're just letting everybody have a few years to catch up. But I don't have time to think about that now, I'm probably running Tim's campaign next year...vote Tim or get stuck with Pa-lin...

Daniel - What about them Fins... I thought they were the best!!
I would Love to see Mr Coker back on the council next year!!

Look I'm tired of arguing. I support Tim Coker for council next year, and I support Obama for president, and if you all vote for someone else, that's fine too, just as long as we can all agree that UK is the best sports team in the nation, and that shouldn't be hard given UT's recent performance against UCLA...haha

Daniel, I think you missed the whole point I was making about experience. No one has experience the first time you run, which is the point you were trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that the Dems are griping about Palin (VP candiate) having no experience, when their own candidate doesn't have much experience either.

I was also making the point that there is a difference in legislative experience (which Obama, Biden, and McCain have) and executive experience which only Palin has.

I have the same opinion that a lot of you have. Lots of experience and time in Washington in not necessarily a good thing. I can speak for only myself, but the longer you are in office, the more out of touch you become with "everyday person" reality.

Prom was the one who brought up Obama quote from the O'Reilly interview, I was just adding a few more.
We all know most people in the public arena stick their foot in their mouths one time or the other. I believe I'll have to email Bill & tell him this time he needs to admit he made a mistake. Of course, he says that he was blasting the parents of Jamie because they had left her alone too much.
Had to mess with you on the VP White House thing, I knew the message you were trying to convey.

O'Reily also blasted Jamie Spears parents because she became a pregnant teenager and then said the media should leave Palin's daughter alone...he's a hero...
As for the VP/White House thing, I guess you're right, in part. Since McCain is like 284, he'll probably only make it through half of his term, so in effect, I would be right.

From the interview which aired last night quoting Obama "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics".
I thought that was pretty funny. Anyway O'Reilly said "government has derived 20% more revenue under Bush than Clinton" & "economy grew" and Obama didn't deny that revenue has increased and stated that the economy grew.
They both agreed that it was the spending that was out of control. So your argument about Bush tax cuts doesn't seem to hold water if more revenue was brought in & economy grew.

Don't think Palin is used to being in Washington, DC either (which I think is a good thing). Didn't know we were electing her to go to White House. Does the VP live there with the President?
(couldn't resist)

Come on Prom, don't confuse them with the facts. Though in an interview the other day Palin, while in Wisconsin, said she wasn't used to being in the deep south. Boy, that's the type of person we need in the White House.

"Under George Bush the debt has gone up four trillion dollars, all right? So that's the credit card we have taken out on our kids from the Bank of China that they are going to have to pay for."
-Barack Obama speaking to Bill O'Reilly.

There were no Bush tax cuts. He merely stole them from your kids and grandkids. This will continue under John McCain. This is fiscal child abuse.

NO WAY
NO HOW
NO OBAMABID BOBBLE HEADS

Go Obama/Biden!

Prom -
My.. that last statement of yours was the most original I've heard yet!
Perhaps there's hope, especially if you're speechless. Oh, BTW You forgot one thing in your post.
Judy's List:
(1)http://Prometheus has finally spoken

Have Prom and Brian been brainwashed? That must have taken seconds. Is there an Obama cult out there that they have joined or are trying to start? I fear for them... (lol)

As far as the preachers, just like anyone else, they have opinions too. They also in their jobs, like many other occupations, have a captive audience and a platform so to speak. That's probably all it was, granted, in poor taste, but all the same.

And as for all the other stuff, I just have one thing to say..................

MCCAIN PALIN 08

Judy, DebraP:
My, this is an elegant debate: boots, mop and a pooper scooper. I'm speechless.

Dear God, Please, please, please allow John McCain and Sarah Palin to give these arguments in the debates. Please put the words boots, mop, pooper scooper, and big elephantine pooper scooper with mechanical cleaning wipers into their mouths, so that the nation may mock them and we can have a new start with a president with judgment, integrity, and vision: Barack Obama. Amen.

MG62 is right, but the bigger issue here is, with all the crap going on in the world today, why are preachers worried about politics. At best, Jesus was indifferent to the Roman government while he was alive, but now preachers on both sides act as if they are qualified to tell their followers how to vote. The point of church is to get to heaven, the point of elections is to rule the world, which do you think God is more concerned with? Your soul or your vote? There isn't a moral party, both sides have big faults when it comes to religious issues. .

Sorry....my bad. I guess I misunderstood the guidelines.

But by definition, then, Pastor Maury Davis of Cornerstone Church in Madison WAS wrong to do what he did a few weeks ago when he endorsed candidates in the Sumner County School Board race to his congregation, from the pulpit.

It is not illegal for pastors to endorse candidates, so I'm not sure where you think this board is going to support any claim that you may think you should make. It is their right to support or oppose any candidate the same as yours. It is not even illegal for them to present the facts to their congregation in a church about where candidates stands on religious issues that matter to Christians. It does, however, tread on the edge of the law for them to actually endorse a candidate FROM THE PULPIT. So, if you are going to suggest that Christians are not entitled to an opinion or are not granted the same freedom of speech that anyone else is, perhaps we should talk about Reverend Wright and perhaps we should talk about all those essentially 100% African-American churches across American who will proudly host Barack Obama, and who have in the past hosted Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and Bill Clinton for the sole purpose of pressing their political candidacy. There are not very many churches outside of the African-American community who will allow their church services to be used as a campaign stop for a single candidate and invite all the media to attend. No, I haven't seen one of those churches threatened with losing their tax exempt status--nor are we likely to. That would certainly be called racist by the same crowd who believe that if you vote for anyone but Obama you are racist.

DebraP - LOL... Thanks for the offer I hope it's a BIG scooper!

Judy, you can borrow my "pooper scooper" if you like. You go Girl!!!

Prom, give it a rest. People are going to make up their own minds regardless of what you say.

I don't trust Obama and nothing you point out on this blog is going to make me change my mind.

Pators have a right to voice their policital opinions as long as they are NOT voiced from the pulpit.

If Palin hadn't came out and announced that her daughter was pregnant and the media found out they would have been accusing her of trying to hide the fact. I think she did the right thing by making it public.

I think I covered everything.

Prom - You said "Portland Fan, you can regurgitate to others lines you heard on talk radio, but don’t try them on me." So it's OK that you can regurgitate all over this board but others cannot? I think you missed the boat a long time ago! I made my point, you on the other hand continue spewing all over the place! Excuse me while I put on my boots and get the mop!

Tim, hate to be personal, but how much experience did you have when you were elected to the council?....

As for Palin, it's funny how she doesn't want her Jamie Lynn Spears daughter mentioned, but she doesn't mind parading her son who has been in the military for like six months and hasn't served anytime in Iraq or Afghanistan, then wants to talk like she can relate to parents who have.
Also, McCain wants you to be able to choose where your kid goes, but he doesn't want tax money to help them get to college....

Just asking,
Pastors are citizens also. Who are you to take away Tim's right as an American citizen to vote and discuss the affairs of the country. I'm an ardent supporter of the separation of church and state, but that doesn't lock ministers out of the political process. What is your point?

Tim,
I assume you were referring to the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006, which created more transparency and to expose porkbarrel spending. He was co-sponsor, as was McCain. The bill is also referred to as the Coburn-Obama bill (1). Obama worked closely with Coburn to write the bill and with Coburn and McCain to pass the bill, which refutes Republican arguments that Obama never reached across the aisle.

For the Lobbying and Ethics Reform Act of 2007, Obama joined Sen. Russ Feingold, also called Feingold-Obama (2).

Judy,
I listen to conservative talk radio from time to time and hosts often repeat Portland Fan's question or some variant of it: "I would like for an Obama supporter tell me one thing he has accomplished in his political life? Just one."

Missed the boat Judy? He said name one. I did.

Let's look at the job applicant scenario. Say, I am on the board for a corporation and we have a choice between a 72-year-old man with an extensive resume and a 45-year-old rising star whose resume also passes muster. The corporation is looking for new ideas and change. Looking at the real world, how many corporations are going to go with the 72-year-old? Be honest.

So do you have a checklist that you keep on your refrigerator that you check off as you are trying to figure out who to support?

You write as if these candidates aren't influenced by party, by precedent, and that you can watch the political theater in their speeches and conventions without understanding the context.

Let's take Hillary Clinton's candidacy, for example. Education √, experience √, my issues √, their words √. I've even heard the woman speak in person. Still she was the wrong person at the wrong time.
* She has been proven a very poor manager. Her campaign was full of in-fighting and drama. (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200809/hillary-clinton-campaign)
* Both Clintons are magnets for drama and scandal wherever they are and whatever they are doing. Much of what happened during the 1990s was Republican manufactured scandal mongering, but they created too many openings for them to exploit.
* The Clintons did many good things, but in the end they were a disappointment. With their skills and appeal, they could have inspired a generation. Instead, they were concerned with self preservation and just getting by. The Clintons were for the Clintons.
* She would have been a "bridge," to use a Clinton metaphor, to the 20th Century not the 21st Century. She would have been a change from Bush, but she embodies the 1990s. Time to move on.
* First man Bill Clinton. I voted for him, but two terms were enough. Also, another Bill Clinton sexual scandal in the White House is more than I and the nation could handle.
* She's so obviously managed. In debates, she was spouting off one liners and prepared talking points. There is nothing spontaneous, nothing natural.

Judy's list:
(1) http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=LatestNews.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=8dcb8c35-802a-23ad-4d37-9c8ea9c43460
(2) http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/07/01/20070108.html

What organizations can we contact about pastors of local churches endorsing candidates? I would like to use this board as evidence. Please tell me where so I can direct the information.

Tax-exempt status...remember that.

Hey Prom, not a challenge, just something I noticed about your post....

The term "worked with" in reference to an accomplishment, is very vague. What does that mean? Did he sponsor/cosponsor it, vote for it, or maybe just attend a meeting where it was being discussed. I point this out because even on the local level you will often get people running for office who talked about how they worked on certain laws when in reality, all they did was show up at the meeting and warm a seat. Same thing with "serving on" a committee. Just because a person is on the comittee doesn't mean they actually did any work, or had any input on any meaningful legislation.

I only say this because I too have heard this question bellowed by Sean Hannity(not a huge fan). But when you look at it, is he wrong? There is really nothing much specific in the list you got from his campaign web site. And, to be fair, we can't count his State Legislature stuff as accomplishments and experience since the Dems are discounting Palin's accomplishments and experience when it comes to being involved in a State Legislature as Governor. That's just fair, right? We should keep it even.

The only specific thing I saw on your list was co-sponsoring the ethics reform bill. I think if you'll look, there weren't many who did not sponsor or cosponsor that bill. In fact, I think McCain's name is on there too. It's late, and I couldn't pull it up right away, but I think I'm right.

Now there is nothing wrong with ambition. It is a wonderful motivator. But Barrack spent less than a year in the Senate (maybe even less that half a year, I'd have to look) before he started running for President. To be fair to him, how much time did he have to do something before he was travelling to the "57 states" (sorry, couldn't resist). I really think Obama may have been better served waiting four years to run. Of course, he could have been afraid Hillary would get in for 8 years, so who knows.

My point is, if you are going to talk about his accomplishments, specific means we actually know what he did. Not a vague statement like worked on or worked with. If you can find any more specific information, I'd like to know about it, and I'm sure most Democrats would so they can tell the Sean Hannitys to shut up. Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to find it.

HEART'S WILSON SISTERS PI**ED OFF AT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY:

September 5, 2008

Ann and Nancy Wilson are pi**ed at the Republican Party and have fired off a cease and desist letter to the McCain/Palin campaign.

Specifically, the Heart women are upset that the GOP has used their classic "Barracuda" as a theme song for Sarah Palin. TMZ obtained a statement from Heart's rep, who says "The Republican campaign did not ask for permission to use the song, nor would they have been granted that permission."

The statement goes on: "We have asked the Republican campaign publicly not to use our music. We hope our wishes will be honored."

We're told Ann was watching TV today and heard the song at the convention when Palin was touted.

UPDATE: Twenty minutes after we posted this story, the GOP ended the evening after McCain's speech with the song, "Barracuda."

Courtesy of www.tmz.com

This Portland household is voting for Obama.

Prom - Once again you missed the boat,

In your earlier response to Portland Fan who asked for someone to give one thing Obama accomplished, that this is a job interview where you hire the best person for the job, not someone that may think "I've never done that but I think I can" Your reply began with ""Portland Fan, you can regurgitate to others lines you heard on talk radio, but don’t try them on me."" Then you proceed to spew a long laundry list of regurgitated lines taken from the same places. Don't call the kettle black if you're doing the same thing!

If this is what you depend on for "facts" I've a game for you to play. Remember in school "I've got a secret pass it on" the first person in a circle wispers in the next persons ear and it gets passed to about 20 others, the last person repeats what they were told and OH my how the story changes! Wanna Play then we can post the end result on the web along with all the rest of them!

This is Judy's List
Research - Unbiased info (if Possible) background of education, experience, how they've voted on past issues.
Learn - how do they stand on issues that are important to you & our Country.
Listen - In their own words thru debates, pres conf, speeches, etc. There's no better place to listen than the horses mouth.

Bottom line as I have said before, draw your own conclusion as to which candidate has the experience, knowledge, dedication, determination, and will have the ability to rally congress behind them to turn this country around. Being informed about the candidate you vote for is your responsibility, and should not be based on the spouting biased regurgitate opinions you hear. Of Course, IF your vote isn't important to you then by all means search the web and read what others heard and "passed on" again and again for you to hear.

Yeah, I researched the facts for my argument. You know, like the Verizon commercial, I got my network. Next time I'll reference my facts with little numbers set in parentheses and a bibliography at the end. That should make this fun. I'll call it Judy's list.

Portland Fan asked me to name one accomplishment that Barack Obama can claim. I gave him 1 + about 30 others.

You asked why do I "feel that this new Republican Presidential party can't or won't go against the
grain of the party we've had for the past 8 yrs?" I responded with an argument that John McCain surrendered most of his independent stances to the far right wing and provided evidence. McCain votes 90 percent of the time with George W. Bush. Where is the reform, where is the difference, where is the backbone? It isn't there. McCain is a cranky, undisciplined, flaky codger who has no business living in the White House.

Instead of debating those arguments, you argue "aha, you researched some of your facts on the Internet and here is where you found them." Nice try.

By the way, you named some of them, and below are some of the other sites.
http://www.barackobama.com/learn/meet_barack.php
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/9111.html
http://howinsaneisjohnmccain.blogspot.com/2008/03/mccain-never-met-position-he-didnt-like.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/flipflopper.htm
http://www.kirkwatson.com/media/whats-new/2008/02/20/msnbc-and-me/

Thank you for the posts Judy. I was thinking the same myself. Prom's posts read alot like other articles I have seen.
When I said earlier about loving school choices, I should have clarified. I have children who are thriving in Portland schools. They have had some of the best teachers and I am not sure that I would choose different schools even if available. Wouldn't it shake things up a little bit in public schools if school vouchers were offered and maybe help get rid of the teachers were are not teaching in the best interest of the students?

Oh Prom - Another good one about McCain that "you" come up with. hummm looks almost word for word from TheCarpetBaggerreport web site, that boasts "McCain's Official Flip Flop List" that is run by a freelance writer, that began writing campaign direct mail pieces for a major Democratic consulting firm in 1996, with a laundry list of talk radio, tv, and media appearances. Now who's spouting words from a radio/TV talk show.

Prom - You can regurgitate to others lines you read from the web, but don't try them on me!!

First let's put what YOU wrote in perspective:
Great COPY and PASTE from OBAMA'S web site I'll give you credit for the fluff that was worked into it.

http://www.barackobama.com/learn/meet_barack.php

John McCain is like the character Gollum in the Lord of the Rings who will do anything and say anything to gain control of his “precious” White House. When he was younger, he cheated on and dumped his wife who dutifully waited for him to return from Vietnam for the Paris Hilton-type Cindy Helmsley with money, and the connections to catapult him to national power. Now his goal is in reach and his backbone and fortitude he had while he was in a prison camp has turned to rubber. John McCain is a cynical, power hungry, Washington-corrupted man.

Here are some of the following things McCain has compromised and flip-flopped on in since he started running for president:

He was against off-shore drilling for 26 years, now he is for it.
He was an advocate against torture, but caved in on it against the pressure of the Bush administration and voted against a ban on CIA torture.
He was against warrantless wiretapping, and now he supports it.
He was against the Bush tax cuts, and now he is for the same fiscal policies that have doubled our national debt.
He was against privatizing Social Security, and now he promotes this idea.
He was against storing nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain in Nevada and now he supports it.
He was against engaging in diplomacy with Hamas, and now he is for it.
He was against setting a timeline for withdrawal from Iraq as advocated by Barack Obama, and now he is for it.
He was against talking to Iran and North Korea as advocated by Barack Obama, and now he is for it.
He was against inflating tires to save gas, and now he is for it.
He was against "agents of intolerance" like Jerry Falwell, and now he is for them.
He was against ethonal, and now he is for ethonal.
He was for campaign-finance reform, and now he won’t back his own bill.
He says he is against lobbisty, but many of his key campaign officials are telecom lobbyists, who have given at least $765,000 to his campaign
He was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.
He has been both both for and against overturning Roe v. Wade.
He introduced legislation to regulate gun shows, and now he is against any gun regulation.
He introduced a bill on immigration reform, and then he voted against it.
He opposed a study to study the government's respons to Katrina, and then claimed to be for it.

How is this for confidence in your vice-president nominee: the McCain campaign is sheltering Gov. Palin from answering direct questions from the press in favor of interviews with people like Sean Hannity, Larry King and Ellen DeGeneres. No press conferences and according to Nicole Wallace of the McCain campaign, the American people don't care whether Sarah Palin can answer specific questions about foreign and domestic policy. They don't have the confidence that she can hold her own in a press conference.

Portland Fan, name one clearly articulated foreign policy stance held by Sarah Palin.

Portland Fan, you can regurgitate to others lines you heard on talk radio, but don’t try them on me.

First let's put this in perspective. Two of our nation’s worst presidents were two of the most experienced. Richard Nixon served in the Senate and was vice president for eight years. James Buchanan was a congressman and Senator, was an ambassador, and served as secretary of state and his policies led us into Civil War. Our biggest war hero president, U.S. Grant was a disaster. Something tells me that if John McCain becomes president he could join this undistinguished club because of his temper and tendency to make rash, reactive decisions.
On the other hand. Abraham Lincoln was one of our least qualified presidents, yet is considered by both Democrats and Republicans as our nation's best.

Second, let's look at some of the Republican's who ran for president. Fred Thompson. He was significantly less distinguished than Barack Obama yet had huge support and rivaled him in popularity and enthusiasm for a period.

Now, on to Barack Obama's resume of accomplishments:
Was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review
Graduated with a Juris Doctor (J.D.) magna cum laude from Harvard in 1991
Taught constitutional law for 12 years at one of the nation’s premier universities, the University of Chicago.
Worked for $13,000 a year helping the Inner City Chicago poor. Helped thousands find new work and registered 150,000 people to vote.
Associate for a law firm specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development
Founding member of the board of directors of Public Allies, a non-profit dedicated to youth leadership development.
12 years of legislative experience (8 in the Illinois State Senate and 4 in the US Senate)

In the State Senate, sponsored 780 bills, of which 280 were signed into law.
• Added health insurance for 20,000 children
• Welfare reform
• Earned income tax credit
• Death penalty reform making interrogations be video taped
• Sponsored a bill probing police profiling
• Co-sponsored a prescription drug discount buying club program for seniors and the disabled.
• Co-sponsored major ethics reform called the Gift Ban Act.

In his 4 years in the US Senate:
• Served as the US Senate point man on ethics
• Worked with Republicans to expand and author program to locate and dismantle stray Russian WMD’s left over from the cold war after the disbanding of the USSR.
• Co-sponsor on a major bipartisan ethics, lobbying reform bill that banned lobbyist gifts, meals, jets, required disclosure of earmark and contribution bundling to candidates or committees and restricted retiring members of Congress from going into lobbying.
• Worked with Republicans on a measure to make the federal budget far more transparent and accessible by allowing citizens to go online and see how and where every dime of their tax dollars is spent.
• Served as a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee and helped veterans get the disability pay they were promised, and made sure the VA was ready for the return of the veterans who needed care after Iraq and Afghanistan.
• Served on the following Senate Committees: Foreign Relations, Environment and Public Works, Veterans' Affairs, subcommittee on European Affairs.
• Traveled the world and met one-on-one with world leaders making official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa.

Won the Democratic nomination for president, beating the most formidable connected political network in the Democratic party, the Clintons. He beat all odds and ran a phenomenal campaign, without the political in-fighting and with brilliant strategic planning that was able to overcome the Clinton machine.

Inspired a generation of young people to take an interest in their government and gave them hope for their future in the aftermath of the disastrous Bush years.

Yes, I am a Republican. I was raised Democrat and thought for a long time I would always be. Clinton changed my mind. At first, I was uncomfortable with the Jennifer Flowers situation then seeing him sign NAFTA really turned me around. I know now that the deal was orchestrated by Republicans, but he did sign it. After my ears were opened & I didn't just listen to the Dem side, I realized that I shared more beliefs with the Republican party than Democrat pary. Go McCain/Palin

I would like for an Obama supporter tell me one thing he has accomplished in his political life? Just one.

This is like a job interview. You hire the guy with the most experience, not the guy that says "I have never done it before, but I think I can."

...Just one thing Obama has done in his political life???????

As the parents of a special needs child McCaine and Palin have two votes in this house. We were really having a hard time getting fired up over either candidate but Palin cinched it for us. She was awesome giving her speech and quite frankly the only thing that would make it perfect would be if she were the one running for President.
I will admit that it has really bothered me a lot that any time I mention to anyone that I'm not voting for Obama that I'm treated to being accused of being racist. The man if elected with be the first biracial President. Truly wouldn't he be served by pointing this out to his voters and knocking out the racism card from his election that in doing so he is geared toward representing everyone red and yellow, black, and white. We all seem to forget we are all precious in His sight.

dontmakemelaugh - I could of swore the first night she came out and introduced herself that she said she was a soccer mom, and heard her referred to as such there after until the joke came out about hockey moms. Must be I was listening too hard because I wasn't at all impressed with McCain's VP choice (mostly due to all the neg publicity) until she herself came out and talked. My apologies to Daniel.

Prometheus and or Daniel - Why do you feel that this new Republican Presidential party can't or won't go against the grain of the party we've had for the past 8 yrs? Is it not possible that they too have had ENOUGH of the same ol, same ol!

School choice will be all hunky dory with you Republicans, until, for example, a group of Muslims decide to start using their federal vouchers to start a Madrasah that teaches in Arabic.
There is school choice now. If you wish to send your child to a private schools, there are church schools, there are prep schools, etc. You say, oh, private church schools are too expensive. Well, your church must not believe enough in Christian education to start such a school.
The public school system has served our nation well. It ensures that our children have a common education, and that Christians, Jews, Hispanics, and people from all creeds and ethnic groups can come together and share a common education. It has challenges yes, but you have a say in how they are run. You vote for school board members and and can have a say at their public meetings.

I don't need to hear a politician speak to make me feel proud to be an American. What I want is for my children and grandchildren to also be proud to be Americans.
* George Bush cut your taxes by raising your children's and grandchildren's taxes. During his eight years he doubled the national debt. McCain/Palin promise to continue Bush's tax policies
* George Bush destroyed our reputation as a model for human rights by allowing and encouraging torture.
* George Bush manufactured an unnecessary war that cost thousands of American lives. John McCain was an enthusiastic enabler of this war.

A vote for Obama is a vote for the present and a vote for safer and more prosperous future.

Oops, I meant parents being able to choose schools.

Well, I am voting for McCain/Palin. After the speech last night I remembered how proud I am to be an American. Also, I like the idea of parents being able to choice schools McCain talked about last night.

Yes Fred, there are a few good patriots on here who support prosperity, peace, who don't compromise on torture, and who have the good sense to support Barack Obama for president. There are plenty of war heroes out there who don't have the temperament the judgment to be president and John McCain just happens to be one of them. He can have all the experience in the world, but if this "experienced leader" is going to lead the country like lemmings over a cliff, then what good does his professed love of country do us. Some people destroy what they love, and we've just been through eight years of domestic violence with an abusive president who claims to love his country. Fred, how much pain is it going to take before you get over your co-dependency with the Republican Party?

It's good to see that Daniel has a few names on this site lol.

The Republicans have found their Obama, their "Messiah," and she is a woman. They have been ridiculing the Obama movement. Now they are pouring hope and belief into the empty vessel of Sarah Palin, the great Conservative savior whom many are dubbing the female encarnation of Ronald Reagan. She embodies every argument that Republicans have been throwing at Barack Obama for the last year.

For me, it is the issues. Barack Obama best supports my issues and has the best chance of getting the country back on the right track. Sarah Palin is George Bush with breasts. More of the same.

I AM VOTING FOR McCAIN/PALIN....THAT'S ABOUT ALL I CAN SAY, OTHER THAN PALIN HELD HER OWN ON HER SPEECH, SHE OWNED THE STAGE WITH HER HEAD HELD HIGH AND WHAT SHE SAY'S I BELIEVE WE NEED GOOD CHANGE AND I THINK THEY WILL DO IT, AFTER ALL DOES IT REALLY MATTER..I MEAN COME ON NOW...LOOK WHAT THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN THREW WITH BUSH AND WHAT OBAMA HAS SAID.."VICTORY" ONLY WITH HIS ELECTION, I NEVER SEE HIM FACE THE FLAG OR PLACE HIS HANDS ACROSS HIS CHEST BEFORE IT, AND AFTER ALL THESE YEARS IN HIS CHURCH, HE JUST UP AND LEAVES THEM WHAT DOES THAT SAY????

If you notice the only way Daniel can back up any of his statements is by name calling. Please bring more to the table than that.

If you believe what McCain says, then I do feel sorry for you. You're talking about a lifelong politician who has voted for nearly every Bush policy and has been in Washington since nearly before I was born. How much shaking up has he done? He's owned by lobbyist, and the fact that Republicans even made this man their candidate smells of hypocrisy.

Daniel,

You THINK Obama will do all these things but you are not sure. Alot of what I have heard Obama say he wants to do will bring socialism into the USA. Do you want that?? NOT ME!! The government has enough control. Last night McCain said he wants a government that stands beside you NOT in your way. If Obama is elected he will be in OUR WAY!!

I have been undecided until last night. I think McCain and Palin will shake things up in Washington and I would love to see Palin and Pelosi go head to head.

I have always voted Democrate but not this year.

Oh Judy, She is a hockey mom. I don't believe they play much soccer in Alaska. I could be wrong. Remember her joke.."What's the differnce in a hockey mom and a pit bull?? Lipstick!!

I loved it!!!

I am voting for John McCain and Sarah Palin, I believe the character that McCain brings to the table is top notch. Yea the economy is not as good as it was a few years ago, but it wasn't going to last that way forever. The economy is about where it should have been. Yes gas is high, but you have to change your lifestyle. The gas prices have skyrocketed since Pelosi and the do nothing congress has taking over. And these are the people that want you to reward them with the White House.

I think within a month of Obama's election, our economy will start to turn around. Investors have little confidence in a Republican-led White House, the past 3 Bush administrations prove that. I think he'll make an effort to pass sweeping health care reform. I think he'll build a better relationship with countries like Russia and Iran to keep us out of another war. I think he'll keep a prescense in Iraq, but not a strong one, and I think instead he'll put those troops where they should have stayed — Afghanistan. I also think he'll help create better jobs and find a way to ease the oil burden without sacrificing our environment just so we can hold onto our oil dependence for another decade.

Oh, I love political discussions, lol!
Daniel, if I may ask, what do YOU hear Obama say he'll do?

Everyone has a different perception of things and I'm just curious what you hear. I know he says 'Change.' But what change is he going to do, actually do? You can't just tout change cause you are banking on people being fed up. I'm not knocking anything, just curious.

Just be sure you don't drink the water.... Ya know what I mean. ;)

OH Daniel get a life, I didn't realize you were a spokesperson for Obama, Duh blonde me! Reporting has warped your mind, tell the boss you need a long vacation, I'm sure we'd all be happy to send you on a cruise to Alaska where you can CHILL out!.

Well Judy, if your a middle or lower class citizen, McCain is going to take your tax money and give it to oil companies and war companies. He's going to further isolate our country from the rest of the world by continuing the Bush policy of shoot first, ask questions later. He's going to ignore health care, and why shouldn't he, both he and Palin already have theirs paid for by tax dollars, though they think you shouldn't. He will do nothing to help struggling kids go to college and he'll do nothing to get our economy out of this mess but continue to provide his rich buddies breaks, just like Bushwhacker. Dems da facts.

...more mindless babble, more failure to address the question by deflecting attention towards the opposing party. Unlike you, I believe I'd rather have the spouse of a person who got a DUI 22 years ago at the age of 22 as second in command than to "have a pothead running the country" as you say. You didn't catch anything! My candidate has a clean record; his VP choice had a spouse who got a DUI 22 years ago and a daughter who made a bad choice (although it isn't adultery as you suggested. You need to look that one up in Webster's) Your candidate snorted cocaine and smoked marijuana. You've made your choice and I've made mine. We'll cancel out each others' votes and let the rest of the voting public decide.

Daniel: - Plans, Plans, Plans, Plans................. They all have plans, Obama, McCain, Biden, Palin they're all going to save the world!!!! YES that's what they say!!! Heck I got one TOO! TELL ME HOW you're going to do it! SUBSTANCE Daniel that's what I want to hear! You're so blown out of the water with ridicule that I don't know if you even know what Substance is! YES, I heard the speech, (his plan) Now lets get to the brass facts.... how he and how are they gonna work that plan, how are they going to take that sand, stone and water and make that castle! Am I clear Daniel, I can't explain it any clearer. Maybe you should go have that sniff now it might bring you back down to earth:)

PS: I believe if you fully read this post you will see where I HAVE called out on those that spoke of racial issues on this topic and how I stand.

AHA! Caught ya, just like the past decade, Republicans love to point at "moral issues", but they can't take it when their candidates go through the same. I think how someone's family ends up is a direct relation of the type of leader they are. No one is perfect, far from it, but in the Bible when the descriptions are given for Elders, they are held to a much higher standard than the average Joe. The comparison here is that someone wanting to be second in command should be held to a much higher standard, including how they have led their families.
I would rather have a pothead running the country than a drunk anyday of the week, or a mindless mumbler like we have now. I might go for a sniff before too long if you don't provide some real evidence as to how McCain would be a better choice than Obama.
Funny how what's his name mentioned giving oil money back, when her and McCain's plan is to give HUGE tax breaks for companies that agree to drill in Alaska and McCain has voted against tax breaks for new energy researchers. More lies, more nonsense, more living in the past.

Yeah, Daniel, let's discuss Mr. Obama's admitted history of using marijuana and "blow" (cocaine). And he's the candidate who hopes to become President, not a spouse or child of the candidate. I can't wait to hear how you will rationalize that.

Yeah, I was a little worried with him holding the little one last night, his paws looked a little shaky...
My point is, and has always been this, Republicans love to point at moral issues. Also, lets not forget it was the Conservative media, led by the talking head Sean Hannity, that attacked Michelle Obama. That's fine, but we should play on an even field. Meaning, if your vice president selection has obvious family issues, they should be brought to light. If you want to talk about homosexuality and abortion, then you should also talk about drinking and adultery, especially when it's a minor. Funny, Palin and McCain are against sex education being taught in school, apparently someone could of used a few classes at Anchorage High...

Palin has already put her money where her mouth is. She hasn't just talked about taxing oil companies and giving it to the people, she has taxed oil companies & given the people of Alaska $1,200.00 checks.

You were the one with the "facts' that Todd Palin was a drunk, because he got a DUI. It wasn't recently though unless 22 years ago is recent.

And Clinton almost inhaled pot in college, so he's a pothead. Just as long as we can all be on the same playing field.

Maybe we were listening to different speeches. Obama has plans to cut tax breaks for the rich and give them to the poor, get us out of Iraq within a year, at least that's the plan, talk with our enemies instead of just threatening them, provide health care for everyone, lower gas prices by punishing oil companies for windfall profits...it goes on and on. If you listened to his speech last week then you would have heard the detailed accounts. McCain's plan? Continue to do the same. Palin's plan? Make fun of Obama. Who's ignorant, really? Sorry you don't like the truth Judy, but the truth is what matters, pretty or not. Where's your chagrin of the fools on here that just spew lies about religion and race? It seems pretty hypocritical.
On another note, I agree, an Obama/Clinton ticket would be unbeatable.

So Daniel, let me get my facts straight...
Todd Palin gets a DUI 22 years ago, so he is a "drunk". Senator Obama writes in his book that he has used cocaine, so he is a "coke head"

Daniel
I wasn't going to reply because quite frankly I'm getting rather tired of your rambling on about things that have nothing to do with Pres/VP election. Nobody is saying we DON'T need change! Our goal is to watch, listen, and learn about these candidates. What has Obama said he will do.... same things as the others! However as of yet I have not heard "HOW" any of them intend to accomplish them. This is what I WANT TO KNOW!! They all talk the talk, but can they walk the talk that is the big key! I see no scare tactics atleast nothing more out of the Republicans than comes out of the Decocratics mouths! Let me say one last thing about leadership. YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM DRINK! Get over it and let it go before you continue to push borderline democrats like myself totally to the other side with your ignorance. PS: Brush up on your reporting skills, she likes Soccer! :)

Question....Could Obama change his mind about who he wants as a running mate?? Could he say "OOPS" and get rid of Biden and take Hillary instead?

Just curious

Palin was great at reading words that somebody else wrote, but like most Repugs, she's afraid of talking about the issues. What about health care, the economy and global warming? What about ending the war in Iraq? What about dealing with terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan? What about creating new jobs, because Bush's plan of giving to the rich sure hasn't helped our economy, and that's exactly what McCain wants to continue. Look, McCain is a war hero, but that only goes so far. The scare tactics the Republicans use every election is just astounding, even more so that people fall for them. Don't vote for Obama because he doesn't have any experience dealing with war. Boy, Bush's experience really paid off didn't it? Just ask the over 4,000 troops that won't ever come home that died for basically nothing. What was very laughable was Palin taking credit for the bridge to nowhere project that she originally was trying to distance herself from. Plus she never dealt with the fact that her teenage daughter(underage, we might add) is pregnant and her husband recently had a DUI. Her leadership skills of her own family are obviously mediocre at best, but she thinks she can lead the country because she governed a state with 30 eskimos in it and likes hockey? Please, it's time for change, not another 4 years of failed Bush policies and scare tactics.

Fair Warning,
No, I didn't receive that email, but then again I tend to block SPAM........

I just got this in my e-mail box--

"I don't know whether you have heard of George Green, but he is a former investment banker (Registered Financial Principal with the N.A.S.D.) and a Broker/Dealer, Securities Underwriter, Real Estate Developer, Insurance Broker and Publisher, who was invited to become a member of the 'Power Elite'.

However, faced with a moral and ethical dilemma, he turned his back on his former associates and chose to walk an entirely different path in which he has tried to warn the world of the Power Elite's plans for the future.
....
The bottom line is that Bush is now expected to introduce Martial Law on or before 30th September 2008 - since this date marks the end of the Fiscal Year, when revelations about the true state of the economy - and the questionable practices of the Federal Reserve - are likely to result in riots in the streets and stockbrokers, bankers and financiers throwing themselves off the roofs of their buildings! It is not certain what pretext Bush proposes to use to 'justify' the imposition of Martial Law, but keep an eye on any War Games scheduled to take place in September 2008. My own money is on a Fort Detrick created Flu Pandemic spread primarily by compulsory vaccination but, judging from the deliberate complexity and diversity of 9/11, we must be prepared for multiple false flag events to throw state government and the citizenry off balance."

Anybody else get this?

McCain Palin '08!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Loved the convention last night, except for Gulianni, he was a ham as usual!! Palin is an excellent choice, as is McCain!

If you will notice, Daniel has nothing to say about the Republican candidates. All of his comments are directed toward the whole Republican Party.
He has nothing to say about McCain and Palin and that's why his argument doesn't hold water.

Wow, I think we really have something to consider in this election. Guiliani was awesome, figured he was the hammer of the night. I especially liked it when he said "How dare they ask if Sarah Palin will have the needed time to spend with her family if she is VP! How dare they! They never ask that of a man!!!!" Sarah was interesting, down to earth, and I think I got more from her than I had expected.

Prom - I didn't see a dark spirit or hear no tongue in tonights speech! Left me wanting to know more about her. Could be a very interesting next few months! I look forward to hearing more from the candidates of both parties.

Three different times I have started to write a post in response to Daniel and so far I have changed my mind and deleted every one of them. Those who have intelligent comments to make do not need to resort to name-calling and generalizations like second graders. Why should we give his comments credibility by trying to discuss with him like an adult? His mind is made up, regardless of fact or fiction, and he, like a child with his fingers in his ears, is saying "I can't hear you."

I agree with you, but my point is Republicans don't see it that way unless it's one of their own. Then it's OK, then it's excused. Go FIns! Maybe we'll win 6 games this year, unlike UT...lol

Daniel - I wasn't questioning fact or fiction.... What the Heck difference does it make! You are talking about a soon to be adult and an adult, decisions they make cannot be held as responsibilities of another! dirty Politics!! Throwing Dirt, look at it however you feel, it's still wrong to throw your trash at another because of someone elses actions OMG I only hope and pray that some day when you have kids you can keep them in that crystal ball you look into! Good Luck, and come back to visit sometime when they get into their late teens, I'de love to chat over coffee and compare stories! Maybe then I'll share my Dolphins Pic with you!!

Um, I think those were facts. Her daughter obviously sleeps around, unless you get pregnant from eating too much, and her husband was arrested for a DWI. Obama is not a Muslim, facts Judy, it's about facts. Clinton did sleep around, but it's the Republicans who try to talk about their morality and how Liberals will allow anything. Basically, Republicans for the most part are hypocrites Apparently what they are refering to is abortion and homosexuality, because they think every other sin is excused. I still stand by the comment and won't offer an apology, if you base your vote on something not true and basically biggoted, you're an idiot.

Oh, Daniel
And I suppose your post below - "Her husband's a drunk and her teenage daughter sleeps around." are words spoken from no idiot? Get real!, I am not a supporter of McCain/Palin by no means, but I find your comment and those made by others of the Clinton/Lewinski scandal (which you candy coated in your prior post) down right dirty politics! As usual if you're afraid of loosing throw dirt!! I think the public is tired of this game. Grow up, act like an adult and get over it! The press exposes these things and drags them on forever for the ratings, what's your excuse?

People like the person who posted below should not be allowed to vote, because they are idiots. Obama is not a Muslim, he never has been, and by the way, Muslim is not an ethnicity. As a person raised in the south, I take great offense when people would call us backwards, racist morons. But posts like the one below show that's not too far from the truth. Look how much crap your white boy supposed Christian President Bush has gotten us into. Can't get much worse than that. So if you're reading this and you're basing your vote on something like race or whether or not someone is a Muslim, you're an idiot, and I hope that makes you mad.

And one more thing... I have ALWAYS been for the Democrats... but this year, I'm for the AMERICAN!! I don't think ANYONE realizes what is around the corner if this man gets onto office. It's very scary to me. So for ALL who are voting for Obama, copy and paste this into your note pad, then if and when this man becomes president, give it a year and go back and read this again, and see if what I say is not the truth. These words will echo so loud, but then there is nothing you can do...

I have only ONE thing to say..... Everyone keeps calling Obama BLACK.... He's NOT BLACK, That man is MUSLIM... WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

Before you start preaching, I didn't mean that poverty is a sin, only that most Repugs treat welfare users like it is.

Yes, senor Tim. I agree with everything you've said, but the holier than thou Repugs don't seem to have that attitude when they are talking about poverty, homosexuality and other sins. Where was this attitude when Bill Clinton was caught with another woman? Also, we're talking about someone who would be second in command to our country, so the actions of her teenage daughter convey her leadership skills. Everyone makes mistakes, Repugs tend to judge more than others. Don't want seperation of Church and State, don't want other religions taught in schools. Point is, Republicans started down this path, now they have to deal with the consequences of having these mistakes glamorized by the media, and rightfully so.

Daniel, I hope you were being facetious because those comments were way unfair and out of bounds. How can yo be so filled with hate for a group of people? So, what you are saying is that anyone whose child does something the family doesn't like or believe in, then that parent can no longer speak out about moral issues?

If you want to go this route Daniel, fine. Have you only been with one woman? If not, then according to your logic, you can't speak about these issues either. Have you ever taken anything that wasn't yours? Ooops, that makes you pro-theft then doesn't it? Have you ever lied? If you have, then according to your logic, you can't be pro-honesty anymore or lest you become "a hypocrite".

I would surmise that you have no children. If you did, and were involved in raising them in any way, you would realize that all you can do is raise them with your values, but ultimately they are the ones who make the decisions. I suppose you did everything your parents told you to and never made any mistakes? According to your logic, every thing you did that was against a rule, or might be considered immoral was the direct fault of YOUR PARENTS and because you did it, it makes them horrible people. Is that what you are saying?

Daniel, let me teach you a lesson I learned the hard way. Stop putting your faith in people, and start putting your faith in God. People sin, they make mistakes, they will let you down. Conservatives and Liberals, and the inbetweens are no different. If you discount everything someone believes in because the people mess up, then no wonder, based on your vitriolic speech, you seem to hate so many people.

Thankfully Daniel, we Christians serve a God who forgives. A God who loves. A God, who the same as any parent, gave us some values and morals to follow. And the same as any parent, He has to shake His head in shame when we disobey. But also, the same as any good parent, He is willing to forgive and welcome us back with open arms. If only perfect people could be pastors and deacons, then there would be none. If only perfect people could go to church, they would be empty. If only perfect people could be Christians, there would be none.

Honestly Daniel, if you are human, and therefore have probably made a mistake or two, you'd better hope others don't hold you to the same standard you are holding Palin to. If they do, then you're not qualified to run for any office, or give an opinion on just about anything.

Tim you're right, Palin is a typical conservative. Her husband's a drunk and her teenage daughter sleeps around. So much for the moral right, huh. Of course abortion is bad and we shouldn't tolerate gay people...ha the hypocrisy of Republicans in this race never ceases to amaze me. Not to mention all the crap about Obama not being "experienced" enough, now you have a governor of a state with like ten people in it who hasn't even served a full term that could very easily be the president if McCain is elected since he's like 138. Not to mention her "values" don't seem to rub off much on her family and Tim, as a preacher, you should know in the Bible what it says about people who can't maintain their own families...

Apparently, Sarah Palin is a member of an Assembly of God church, a pentecostal congregation. She brings with her some very warped ideas about Israel and prophecy, she is anti-science, and her views on abortion are extreme. During Palin's 2006 Alaskan gubernatorial campaign, she said that she would oppose abortion for her daughter even if she were raped.
Maybe we'll be lucky when she speaks in St. Paul,and she'll be overcome by some dark spirit and start speaking in tongues.

Personally, no matter which side of the fence you're on, I have decided that it's mighty slim pickins' either way....none of the candidates or veep running mates are over-loaded with experience in all areas...I'm still undecided, but will definitely vote one way or another in November...

Charles F,

No one would ever want your wife or daughter to go through something as tragic as a rape. No one wants that for anyone.
My only complaint is that people keep saying Pro Choice, Pro Choice. Well, it isn't a choice for the baby that is forming from the time of conception. No one is taking them into consideration.
I worry that abortion is not being used for something drastic like a rape or incest of a child. It is being used for birth control and that's wrong. If you don't want to get pregnant, close your legs...

And Johnny, if you're blaming Sarah Palin for something her child did, I guess your children are perfect? You know where they're at all all times? You know who they're with when they go to a "friend's house?" Come on. You can teach kids all you want, but they make their own decisions.

Obviously, Sarah Palin's "conservative" family values don't ring to her children. Her 17-year-old, unmarried daughter is pregnant. Maybe they will have Jamie Lynn Spears speak at the convention.

Once again proves that these people who frown on others for the way they live aren't so perfect themselves!

That's right Johnny, I am a pastor. And you are right, lying is wrong. That's why I try my best not to do it. I was not in the tank for McCain, you can ask anyone who has spoken to me. Let me tell you exactly where I was, and I think many Conservatives were right there with me.

McCain has not exactly reached out to the Conservatives. Before his VP nomintaion, I was 60/40, maybe 55/45 leaning toward voting the Constitution Party. Yeah I know "why would you waste your vote?" but when the third party cost Bush 41 the election, the Republicans began reaching out to Conservatives again. So that was kind of what I had in mind.

If McCain had chosen a left leaning running mate such as Lieberman or Ridge, I would have felt like he had no concern for Conservatives whatsoever. To have two left-leaning candidates on the ticket, that probably would have pushed me firmly into the third party category.

By chosing Palin, I feel that McCain is willing to, at the very least, do what it takes to keep Conservatives in the fold. He is at least thinking about them. I'm not excited about him, or gung ho about him. But I at least feel like I can vote for him with a clear conscience.

As for the possibility of her becoming President, that doesn't bother me at all. Maybe no one realizes that she has the exact same amount of foreign policy experience that Obama does (practically none), and she has the only candiate with executive experience in the whole race. McCain has nver held executive office, Obama has never held executive office (heck he only held national office for what, a little over 100 days before announcing he was running for President, wow, that's a bunch of experience), and Biden has no executive experience. So, ironically, Palin is actually the most experienced executive on either side. That's another reason she was a great pick.

I am voting for Obama because he is for the workers having a voice in their workplace, and for higher wages, as well as women having equal pay for an equal days work.

As for being pro-choice, if my wife were raped and impregnated by a thug in a parking lot, I'll be damned if you or my government decides for me and her that she has to have that child.

I have decided who I am going to vote for in the Presidential election.
I was actually going to vote for Obama until I heard him say he was Pro Choice.
That killed it for me. McCain will get my vote!

C'mon Coker, you were going to vote for the Republican ticket regardless. You are a pastor, and lying is bad, so be honest. You were going to vote Republican regardless.

He could have chosen a squirrel as a running mate.

Soo...if old man McCain croaks while in office, this Palin lady will be the leader of the free world?

Also, how transparent to the Republicans, and you people on here as well, to think that just because he chose a female, one who stands for the OPPOSITE of everything that Hillary stands for, Hillary supporters will throw themselves at his feet....

You gotta be kidding me.

Palin is a great pick because she will draw voters from two demographics McCain can really use. Not to mention, that now both sides can claim to be making history.

Palin will not only pull in some of the disillusioned Hillary voters, but she also gives some confidence to fiscal and social conservatives who have been on the fence about McCain.

In my mind, this is about the best pick he could have made. The other names that were good in certain categories, but would cause problems in others. Palin's reputation as a solid conservative, and an ethics reformer, really makes McCain's ticket stronger. Well done!

May even wind up clinching my vote.

This election is boiling down to who has the best strategy, & able to produce the most shock & awww, not who can do the best job for our country. This is truly sad!

I had a feeling about this one for a few weeks. Newt Gingrich pushed her as a VP and with the focus that McCain was giving trying to win over the Hillary voters, it seemed like a natural choice. When I got up this morning, the focus was still on Pawlenty and Romney and then they got scratched and at 9:30 a.m. they announced Palin. The talking heads on the cable news networks were expressing mild shock over this one. I would have been more shocked had Romney or Pawlenty been chosen.

Brian, I believe you are right on the money.
This choice should put him over the top.
18 million cracks in the glass ceiling now hace a place to go.
Smart move!

This campaign will really be defined today after McCain selects his running mate. The Dems had a very successful convention. He needs to grab the spotlight back from the Dems. He won't do that by choosing a Mitt Romney or a Tim Pawlenty. I'm going to say he will choose: Sarah Palin of Alaska. This will help reinforce his Maverick reputation and help him fight against the Dems greatest argument against him: that a McCain presidency will be G.W. Bush's third term. It will also add some much needed excitement against the very fired up Democrats. I'm writing this at 6:50 a.m. We'll see if I'm right or wrong in about four hours.

I believe the Republican party wanted Hillary to loose as they stood a better chance of winning the whitehouse against Obama. Hillary was the stronger of the 2 candidates, but I think voters thought a vote for her would be a vote for Bill. We haven't seen the last of Hillary for President I'm sure! Obama made a big mistake by overlooking her for vp, that would of been his sailing ticket to the whitehouse!

Councilman Callis noted below: "One thing is for certain (no matter who you are pulling for), you half-way know what to expect from McCain and you really have no idea what Obama believes;" Very well stated!

Obama is using "change" for his political theme as this country is tired of the same ole same ole, and we're in a real mess! Is he using our weakness to win our votes? I don't know, I've seen alot of fluff in his theory! Show me substance so I can change my way of thinking!

As much as I dislike and totally disagree with Hillary, she is far better then Obama in my opinion; and she as the presidential nomination or as vp could have easily beat McCain.
I think a lot of people (both conservative and liberal) will now hold their nose when they vote this year and the slight edge will go to McCain (but I have been wrong before).
No person will ever totally agree with every position a candidate puts forth. Most people look for a candidate they can most identify with.

I believe decisions are based on the following:
1. Their personal moral standards (this could be based on godly standards, worldly standards, or self-imposed standards)
2. Personal gain (this could be based on economics, safety, etc)
3. Benefit to society as a whole as they see it ( such as more welfare or less welfare, personal responsibility or more government control, etc)
4. Emotional (how they felt during great platitudes of speech) – these voters are less thoughtful in their approach and are usually the deciding 8-10% of the voter base

One thing is for certain (no matter who you are pulling for), you half-way know what to expect from McCain and you really have no idea what Obama believes; I just hope which ever wins that our country will benefit, but either choice leaves something to be desired.

Change and Hope:
Change is not always good – change for the sake of change without any definite direction and plan leads to chaos, and when that happens we will definitely need hope!
Those who clamor for change but do not know how to achieve it are simply emotionally driven. Thoughtful deliberation and consideration are needed for this election cycle.

Logical debate is an oxymoron when it comes to politics, but this thread has stayed relatively on track; and I applaud each of you for that.
Thank for posting,
Mike

I made the below comment before Clinton finished her speech. She really rallied toward the end. Do you think she could beat McCain or do better against McCain than Obama? Her support was soft enough in the Democratic party that it cost her the nomination.

Yes Hillary was outstanding. She ALMOST made me want to vote for Obama. She showed true class!!

I think Hillary Clinton was AWESOME! That woman has a LOT of Class! I saw both, Schweitzer and Clinton, he was good, but Hillary really rung the bells!! Kudos

Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer gave a far better speech than Hillary Clinton tonight. The guy knows energy policy better than just about anybody I've heard from recently. I hope this guy runs for president one day.

I guess I need to talk to an 18 year old to see what Obama stands for. I was watching the news tonight and the media was interviewing the 18 to 20 years olds and they all said : I'm for Obama because I believe in what he stands for.

Huh???

They must have heard him say something that I missed.

Any 18 year olds out there that want to explain it to me????

Prom - I think we'll see a lot of logical thinking going on in this election, like wise I think we'll see the emotional influences being put on the back burner, too much at stake with so little to work with leaves little room to error.

People don't often make decisions so logically. Humans are ultimately emotional animals. This is why race, age, religious affiliation, personality are issues are issues in elections. When I argue that generational chauvinism plays a role, I'm saying that it influences the decision process. A person may not be racist, but in their experience he or she may feel less comfortable with a black man in the top office because there has never been a black man who has been president. A lot of people vote against their economic interests because they feel a closer religious affiliation with the guy in the other party.
You've got your prejudices, Judy. I've got them too. I don't know what yours are, but they do affect our choices. Psychology is a valid topic of discussion when it comes to voting and elections.

Prom - You're like a bouncing ball, now we have age discrimination being thrown into this election, you're grasping at straws!! I suppose Obama chose Biden (age 65) to counter that theory!
Bottom line..... Research All candidates, Listen to what they say, Review their beliefs and past history, Get the Facts! Then vote for the person you feel has the Experience, Dedication, Desire, Ability, and has
*the greatest chance to rally congress behind them to LEAD this country in a positive direction*!!
Then and only then can you walk away from the poll knowing you respectfully did your best in making an informed decision. This isn't a beauty contest, talent or game show!

While race is the most discussed phenomenon in this campaign, there is another that I sense that isn't talked about as much: generational chauvinism. I am a Generation Xer and I've got a whole laundry list of complaints about the baby boomer juggernaut, but I'm not going to get into them now. The last two presidents have been boomers on two different sides of the so-called cultural war and both have been disappointments. While Clinton did many things right, my enthusiasm has been muted by the Lewinsky incident and his failure to inspire the country to make some of the necessary sacrifices needed to keep the country competitive in the 21st Century. Bush on the other hand slapped the ole "We're spending our children's inheritance" bumper sticker on the back of the national moterhome and took us on a spending spree, giving baby boomers huge tax cuts during their peak earning years, just in time for them to start sucking the social security system dry.
Now we have a young candidate representing a new generation, much like the boomers had in the 1960s with John F. Kennedy (who frankly had about the same experience level as Obama). He represents change, a reprieve in the baby boomer exacerbated cultural war, and a pragmatic post-partisan approach to governing. Now the "Don't Trust Anyone Under 30" generation is becoming the "Don't Trust Anyone Under 50." Obama threatens the boomer's self-deluded sense of eternal youth. Damn you again Dr. Benjamin Spock for helping to create this generation of self-absorbed narcissists.
Tom Brokaw wrote a book on the GI Generation called "The Greatest Generation." The Baby Boomer Generation is on the path to becoming "The Worst Generation."
Give us Obama and you'll have a chance to redeem your collective selves.

Prom - I DON'T have a disliking toward Obama! I don't feel he has the experience to lead our country! Period!

I DO on the other hand dislike all the racial pointing fingers that happens if you say you're not voting for Obama, immediately it is turned into a racist situation. I am tired of it, racism has been thrown in our faces for years and years and years and I am sick of it! I was raised in a racist environment, and I hated it! I grew up rebelling against this, I believe we are all equal it doesn't matter what color your skin is, I had black friends, hispanic friends, white, pink, and purple......... But in today's time don't you dare say the wrong thing, look the wrong way, etc etc because it becomes racism, and that's ok!! IF todays times were like they were when I was growing up I could understand all the finger pointing, but they're not, times have changed and so have people, yes there is still racism today like there used to be, but no where close to that of the past. Should we accept that as the best it can be, no, but don't turn the tables and create reverse discrimination in the process which is exactly what is happening. Do you honestly believe that all we have to do is elect a black president and racism will disappear, become less improtant or become neutralized? I don't!

The bottom line is, I am not looking to cheer history, I'm looking for solid leadership for our country. History was made last week in the Olympics! The only thing we need to prove is that we can be a STRONG country by electing leadership that will take us back in that direction, I don't think Obama wether he be white, pink, black, blue or purple has this ability. What is more important? (A) a new chapter in high school history books because we elected a black man as president, or (B) electing someone that will put this country back on it's feet. As a matter of importance I choose (B)

Judy,
Please reconsider sitting this one out. If you lean Democrat, you will not be served by not being counted.
As far as civil rights being first on his list of issues on his site, they are listed alphabetically and they are pretty much a standard laundry list of issues. When I have heard him speak, he has talked about jobs, the economy, the war and civil rights, hate crimes, pay inequality frankly don't come up that much.
The beauty of an Obama presidency is that these issues of race would automatically become much less important and neutralized. We would have elected a black president. America would have proved that you don't have to be a white man to hold the most important office. This is very threatening to the old black establishment leaders. If you've been keeping up with the news, you've heard what Jessie Jackson said about cutting off his you know what. I am not voting for Obama because of his race, but I also recognize the historic opportunity we have to put some of these issues behind us and this does add to my enthusiasm.
Why is discussion of racism as a factor in this race so offensive? With Obama being the first party candidate for president in a very tight contest, it seems a given to me that racism would be a factor, even if it was only 5 or 10 percent of the vote being influenced by racism.
Also, I really do not understand the strong dislike that you seem to have for him as a person. His temperament is very presidential, he gives very thoughtful answers during debates, he seems to have good judgment, he has avoided the gutter politicking that many of his opponents have engaged in, he is obviously very intelligent, and seems to be a pleasant chap. His experience is a legitimate issue, but he has enough positives to make up for it.
His campaign has been very unconventional, and the announcement of his VP was different. Some of the marketing of the "Obama brand" has gone a bit too far, but for the most part he has run a very good clean campaign.
He's not like any presidential candidate we've ever had. Please embrace the difference. The future of our country depends on it.

Prom - Your comment
"Choosing McCain over Obama will be only further evidence that America is surrendering its moral leadership in the world for dangerous self absorption"..... And a man that has made a game out announcing his VP running mate would be a better choice? While his choice may of been one of his better decisions, considering Biden was quoted earlier as saying .. "Obama isn't ready to be president" what kind of team is this going to make?

Your link below to an article about why "Racism" may be one of the reasons he may loose the election is just another way of trying to keep the "Racism issue going" and joining the rest of them in paving the road early with excuses for why he lost! Perhaps Obama himself is the one one that's Racist, look at his issues on his website, the FIRST one on his list is Civil Rights leading to a long list of "blacks/minority issues" such as, Pay inequity, Hate Crimes, Organizations supressing the minority vote, Disparities in the Criminal Justice System, yada, yada, yada. Are these important issues, sure, but 1st on your list over the economy, the war, national debt, I find disturbing!
Sorry, this "D" is jumping ship in this election as I'm sure many others will too.

Great article on Slate regarding the 2008 race:

http://www.slate.com/id/2198397

"You may or may not agree with Obama's policy prescriptions, but they are, by and large, serious attempts to deal with the biggest issues we face: a failing health care system, oil dependency, income stagnation, and climate change. To the rest of the world, a rejection of the promise he represents wouldn't just be an odd choice by the United States. It would be taken for what it would be: sign and symptom of a nation's historical decline."

The election of George W. Bush twice calls into question our nation's ability to elect serious leaders. Choosing McCain over Obama will be only further evidence that America is surrendering its moral leadership in the world for dangerous self absorption.

Here's your chance to let the media know where the people stand on our

Faith in God, as a nation. NBC is taking a poll on "In God We Trust" to

Stay on our American currency. Hurry, before NBC takes this off the web page.

Poll is still open so you can vote.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/

paying taxes is fine, that's what we do as citizens in this country. What I'm saying is by stating that the american public is responsible is saying that we are the reason it's bad, we are the ones who will be solving it. WE aren't the ones who caused it in the first place. You agreed with what I was saying that the presidents and other officials are responsible not the public.

What I find so disturbing is how our country's debt is suddenly becoming an issue. The way our country works there never will be no debt for our country. On top of everything you should look into why social security is gonna be gone in the future. The government had a huge surplus available that wouldn't run out but what did our brilliant leaders do? They decided to dip into that surplus here and there for little things taking a few million every once in a while which turned into a steady thing.

To be honest, yeah I have thought about moving to another country because of all the bad things going on here. If it wasn't for my friends and family I probably would move elswhere. Call me a traitor if you want, but this country is a sinking ship if people dont fix the holes.

This is from a Republican:
http://www.thenextright.com/jon-henke/jerome-corsi

"The continued tolerance and prominence of Jerome Corsi - his books, columns and appearances - is just embarrassing. It is embarrassing for the Right, embarrassing for Republicans, embarrassing for conservatives and libertarians, embarrassing for all of us.

It's not just that he's frequently, remarkably wrong - something pretty well documented and acknowledged by both the Left and (while less enthusiastically) the Right. Both the Obama campaign and Hugh Hewitt acknowledge that Jerome Corsi is "fringe".
...
I mean, c'mon. Have some standards. This guy does not deserve the platform, he does not deserve the publicity, and he does not deserve to be treated as member-in-good-standing on the Right.

The Right seems to engage today in social promotion of hatchet men, bullies and political hit men. Those people poison the Right, and - whatever their temporary electoral effects - they serve to discredit us all."

The dialogue and debate in this country today is appalling. I blame the baby boom generation for creating it and Generation X for enabling it.

Sorry to disappoint you "Oh Heck No," your name is on the mortgage. GWB and his predecessors, especially his Republican predecessors, transferred the responsibility to the future so they could slide through 4-8 years and look pretty having reduced taxes or not having raised them. The reality is he just raised taxes on the kids, born and unborn. They do this and the general public doesn't connect the dots and people like Reagan get airports and roads named after them.

The only way you will get out of this is for you to go to Canada or some other country and trade in your American citizenship. The only way for the general public to get out of it is a revolution or coup d’état and I in no way recommend that.

This is funny....and true!

http://cagle.com/working/080801/greenberg21.jpg

whoa portland fan, dont ever say that we are responsible for national debt. The general public is in no way responsible for our country's debt. If you wanna say we are then you're just as much to blame for every action every president has taken whether you voted or not. That would mean you are responsible for Clinton as well, cause we all know how much you love him. Say what you want about we vote, we can demand change, and all that garbage. Bottom line is the American Public is not responsible for the stupid decisions politicians have done with our money.

Fight back against the right wing smears

Snopes, an unbiased fact-checker
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/

Obama's campaign website's "Fight the Smears" page
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome

Unfit for Publication: A smackdown on right-wing bigot Jerome Corsi
http://obama.3cdn.net/a74586f9067028c40a_5km6vrqwa.pdf

Much of publicly held debt is held by foreign governments and it eats up a a big chunk of the budget in the form of interest payments. The intergovernmental part is the government borrowing from itself. Intergovernmental money was budgeted and spending came in lower than revenues. Thus the surpluses in the late 90s.
While neither is desirable, publicly held debt leaves us vulnerable to foreign powers and creates the most useless part of the budget: debt service. I completely disagree with you that all debt is equal.

Looking at the history of recent presidents, the so-called "tax and spend liberals" were far more fiscally responsible than the self proclaimed fiscal conservatives, whose extravagant tax cuts and recklessly wasteful spending will undermine the security and prosperity of the country for years to come. Below is a very timely cartoon:

http://theboard.zogdog.com/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=10&t=25962

Prom, your statement about "publicly held debt" is true but irrelevant. That's only a piece of national debt. The other piece you didn't mention, which makes up the total, was rising dramatically during those same years. Your original post slamming GWB and praising slick willie referred to national debt and annual surpluses (or lack thereof). You must look at total debt. It doesn't matter in the least whether it is publicly held or intragovernmental, it is debt all the same, for which you and I are responsible. Neither is more or less significant or less a part of national debt than the other.

We aren't going to be discussing "intergovernmental holdings" as you say. Given where this appears to be going, I'm out.

Portland Fan,
Like I wrote in my last post, the government made "three to four consecutive years of payments against publicly held debt." This I confirmed with US Treasury data from the website you provided:
1998 $3.733 trillion
1999 $3,636 trillion
2000 $3,405 trillion
2001 $3,339 trillion

Looks like it is going down. The very last entry, 8/13/2008 is 5,429,866,050,619.62. Guess who holds much of this publicly held debt? The Chinese, Taiwanese... Courtesy of your man, GWB.

Next we're going to be talking about intergovernmental holdings, but I'll hold off on that until you respond.

Prom, I'm not here to argue; rather, to dispute blatantly erroneous information by providing accurate, credible facts. I provided data (US Govt. Treasury data) that contradicted your erroneous claims about reducing national debt and verified mine. Please do the same for me. If you believe the numbers I provided are inaccurate, then by all means show me. If you prefer to ignore that proof and argue, then I'm out. Have a good day!

So, Portland Fan, you personally used this "Debt to the Penny and Who Holds It" page and crunched all those numbers and came up with your answer? Something tells me that you linked to that site from another site where someone who really doesn't have all their facts straight.

During the Clinton years, the government made three to four consecutive years of payments against publicly held debt. If you remember back in the late 90s, the Republicans were trying to take credit for the surpluses. Now, we could get in an argument about intergovernmental holdings and borrowing from the social security trust fund. This is the point I'm trying to make: Clinton over his two terms was a better fiscal steward and left office and the government with the potential of nearly eliminating the national debt over the next decade. That next decade is here, and Bush squandered the opportunity and nearly doubled the national debt in his two terms that it took the US to build since the founding of this country. The Bush tax cuts and the Bush War in Iraq were future tax increases on you, your children and grandchildren.

Now, I'd really like to hear you try to argue how Bush has more "moral authority" to promote human rights than Clinton. How have torture and other violations of human dignity done this country any good? Do you really support what this administration has done?

Come on ???, you know john cook can't use a computer...

?????,
By that, do you mean we both deal with credible data and facts rather than someone's political speculation? The question simply was whether the national deficit decreased in one (my opinion) or several (Prometheus' opinion) of the years Clinton was in office. You can simply look at the US Treasury's data and figure out who is correct. I don't have a political agenda. I just haven't learned to appreciate and respect those who praise one side and slam the other, regardless of which side they are on.

Finally, if John Cook and I do think alike, I'm sure both of us are equally appreciative of your compliment.

gonna go on a limb here, Portland Fan = John Cook (Owner of The Portland Progressive). Only reason I suggest this is you think the same way he does.

Prometheus,
You may personally remember that, but it is incorrect. If you are going to refer us to national deficit data, at least make it credible data. The US Dept. of Treasury's data is my recommendation. Try researching it at:

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/NPGateway

There you will find the exact data I used earlier. The only decrease in the Clinton years was in 2000 and that was as much a surprise to him as the rest of us.

A toll road won't cost you anything if you don't use it. I would use it at a price of $1.50 each way since it would cost more in gas to drive around and i could avoid the traffic. I also thing that Portland is getting help now with the construction of the new 109. Gallatin recently got help with there traffic when Vietnam Veterans opened. White House recently widened their road from the Interstate so it looks like most of us are getting Inprovement's. I don't have anything to say about Westmoreland or Cross Plains because I don't visit either.

I'm not trying to take up for Diane Black since i voted for JoAnn Graves. I just in favor of the Toll Road and hope it gets built.

Portland Fan,
I personally remember that the US started running surpluses in 1998 and that went until Bush blew a hole in the budget and it has been hemorrhaging ever since. See the below links:
http://perotcharts.com/category/challenges-charts/page/4/
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Concerning my "audacity" to state that the US government had the moral authority to promote human rights around the world, yes we did in 2000. It has become a little more difficult to make that argument that nations shouldn't torture, persecute Christians, or imprison political dissidents after word got out about waterboarding and the pictures from Abu Ghraib were released, and the abuses at Guantanamo Bay were made public. Do you agree or not?

You state that I am "so extreme that logical conversation is out the window." This answer does not satisfy me. Please continue to clarify. I prefer we use the Bill Buckley rather than the Bill O'Reilly style of discourse.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=870106744163006454&ei=KZ-jSLDGEZO0rgL_lZy5AQ&hl=en

What's with State Senator Diane Black's passion over building this toll road/bridge connecting Hendersonville to Nashville? She has been all over this since she was first put in office. Does Hendersonville REALLY have such a difficult route to Nashville? She says that the toll road may cost somewhere in the range of $1.50 each way for travelers. I guess Hendersonville citizens could afford that. How about helping the citizens of Gallatin, White House, Portland, Westmoreland, Cross Plains and such for a change? Hendersonville seems to be all she is concerned with.

I just think with everyone's budgets strapped tight, especially our state's, this toll road and the expense that would go along with it is just a waste and a bad idea.

During Clinton's eight years in office, only one year, his final year, showed a decline in the national debt! The debt was greater at the end of his term than at the beginning. At the end of his first year, 1993, national debt stood at $4.53 trillion. At the end of 2000, his last year in office, it was up to $5.66 trillion. And because Congress passed the budget for the upcoming year, by the end of Bush Jr.'s first year in office, the previously enacted Clinton budget had increased the national debt to $5.9 trillion. As you said, credit goes to Clinton / Gingrich.

Go to each candidates web sites and see for yourself the issues both candidates "want to" OR "say they will do" if elected. Do a little research on their background, then draw your own conclusion as to which one has the experience, knowledge, dedication, determination, and will have the support of congress to do even half of the things on their "wish list". We all know they talk the talk when campaigning, and after elected most of it goes right out the window. Being informed about the candidate you vote for is your responsibility, and should not be based on the spouting biased opinions you hear.

wxw.johnmccain.com/informing/issues

wxw.barackobama.com/issues/

replace the "x" in the "wxw" above to www. ---- tried posting this a day ago but it never got posted.

portland fan,
At the end of the Clinton years, the government eliminated the deficit and the US had several years of surpluses. The national debt was still high, but it was on the decline. Credit goes to Clinton / Gingrich and a great economy.

As for Clinton I think he did a good job as President. The nation was in better shape then than it is now.

As for what Clinton did...who cares. If he had came out and said "Yeah I did it and it was the best I had ever had" I think people would have had more repect for him. I don't think it's really what he did but that he lied about it.

Somewhere on this thread somebody said something about McCain's wife not wanting to show her tax returns. I wish she had refused. It's nobody's business what she is worth. They did not file jointly and her worth has nothing to do with McCain running for president.

I'm neither a republican or democrate I just call 'em like I see 'em.

just saying replied,
"Well for me, I would consider schools a social program, many hospitals receive tax money and I'm sure each of us has a relative or friend on social security or welfare."
I said working taxpayers and I know they are always exceptions to the rule, but most workers do not receive social security or welfare. As for schools and jails doesn't some of that come from property & sales taxes, also? I don't believe that I shouldn't have to pay taxes. I just wish sometimes there weren't so many different taxes I have to remember to pay.

Just thinking aloud here what would it be like to pay a nationwide sales tax with no income tax? Anyone have any ideas on that? Let's try to be nice here, okay? Posters have feelings and are people, too.

Prometheus,

You have the audacity to mention Clinton and "moral" authority in the same sentence? Are you aware of the Clinton scandal and all that happened during his time in office? Are you implying that $7.7 million in debt was incurred during the Bush tenure? Tell us what the national debt was at the end of Clinton's regime. Obviously I don't expect answers to these questions. You are so extreme that logical conversation is out the window.

Big difference Portland Fan.

The end of the Clinton years:
* Surpluses and debt reduction
* America was the undisputed Superpower in the world
* America had increased its respect and esteem across the world. Remember the Africa tour?
* The US dollar was strong
* Gas prices were at all time lows
* Had the moral authority to promote human rights

The end of the Bush years:
* $7.7 trillion dollars in debt to be paid by future generations
* The US is being challenged by China, Russia and Europe and distractions in the Middle East have prevented us from meeting that challenge.
* The imperial US presidency created by Bush/ Cheney has caused the world to believe the US is as big a threat as Russia, China and Middle Eastern terrorists.
* The US dollar is weak and plummeting
* Gas prices are at all time highs
* Torture and other violations of human dignity have about destroyed our authority as human rights advocates.

Are we better off now than we were eight years ago? We would have been if Bush had lost in 2000 or 2004.

Guess what, DeeAnna...the exact same thing was said eight years ago.

Brian - you're right. January 2009 will be the End of an Error for sure...and it can't get here fast enough !! I just hope our country can recover from the damage done by the past 8 years.

Wow......... I ain't touching this post

Tim, I'm among the clear minority, but I like both of these men running. I think this is the best choice we've had between two candidates since as long as I can remember. Unfortunately our political process now turns them into such clowns that by the time the primaries are over they are unrecognizable and people build up such negative associations with both of them. Both are pragmatic politicians who are not married to an ideological faction. I'm going to vote for one, but if the other guy wins I won't be too upset. You got to be able to distinguish between the substance and the BS, and unfortunately people buy into one set of goods that has a grain of substance and a lot of BS. Either man who wins will inherit a load of problems that I don't envy at all. Either one however will do a lot better than the crew who has been in power the last eight years. 2009 can't come fast enough.

I mispoke regarding the majority in a presidential vote. George H.W. Bush won a majority of the vote as well. Jimmy Carter was the last Democrat to do it with 50.1%. (Just in case you were wondering).

Does anyone else find it strange that neither McCain or Obama are even close to having 50% in the latest polls? If this keeps up into November, we may see a very weak President as far as having any kind of mandate from the majority of the people.

I'll throw this in just to annoy the Bush haters. Guess who is the only President to receieve a majority of the vote in a presidential election since Regan? George W. Bush.

What does it say for the quality of candiates of both parties that close to 20 percent of the electorate may vote third party, knowing their candidate will not win? These people are so turned off by Obama and McCain that they absolutely refuse to vote for them and would rather vote for someone who has no chance of winning.

The strength and stated policies of both of these candidates bother me. I hate it that if I wind up voting for one of them, it will pretty much be a vote against the other guy instead of a vote for the guy I'll vote for. I don't want to do that. I want to actually like the one Iam voting for, but it appears I am not alone in that not being the case in this election.

Many evangelicals are starting to leave the Republican party for the Democrats. During the 2006 election, a third of white evangelicals voted for Democrats. During the 2004 election, 78 percent voted for Bush. Polls have shown that many are starting to warm up to the idea of an Obama presidency, which should help him tremendously.

Back to an earlier thread, race will be unavoidable as an issue in this election. The calls of racism don't help at all and they trivialize what is really going on. The difference really is generational. Those born prior to the 1960s grew up in a very different America than we have today. They remember segregation, very few blacks were presidents of companies or served in congress, and few to high school with blacks. Those born after 1960 had a very different experience. These days blacks tend to be favored as prom king, even in schools where blacks are the minority. Black is cool.
Where the baby boomers and their elders may feel more uncomfortable with a black president, Generation X and Y might vote for a black president because "black is cool," which isn't necessarily a qualification for the presidency. That doesn't make those older voters racists, but it does call for them to do an internal check to make sure their motivations are not being affected by their earlier experiences and their associated emotions. Likewise for younger voters.

Say a homosexual were to run for president. Generation Y would be much more open to this than Generation X, the boomers and our elders. That doesn't make us homophobes, but we grew up in a time were we had few gay Americans as role models and they were trivilized. This is why the gay ban on homosexuals in the military is on the way out and civil unions / gay marriage is in.

For me I see no great candidate period. Personally I dont like how my vote doesn't count the same as someone's vote in another state. Look into it, in different states your vote would count for a different % of the total just based on where you live. If I do vote, I believe Obama has the best chance at helping our international relations. I do believe that him being of a darker skin will help to show the rest of this world that America has changed slightly. I think it will make it easier for him to deal with other countries. For the most part other countries don't care for Americans. I'm not saying because he's black it will make his job easier. What I mostly see is compared to McCain, he truly is something different. McCain would merely be more of the same type of president we've always had. Also people forget that McCain has run several times before and never had a chance, what makes him any better now? The fact that he's even older and more likely to croak while in office? Bottom line is come election day if McCain wins I think all that says is that there's an abundant amount of christians who just vote republican because of the abortion and gay rights issues. If that is what this country is now, then I dont know if I want to be apart of the "United States of Christianity". Hate it or like it, you know there's some truth in that statement.

Reasons to vote for Obama:
* To return to constitutional norms
* To end torture
* To avoid expanding the current war
* To reverse reckless debt
* To end Rovian campaign tactics
* What he lacks in experience he makes up for with intelligence, confidence, and judgment.
* His demeanor and thoughtful answers during debates, as opposed to the canned answers his opponents give.
* He inspires the youth and has given them reason to believe in our leaders again
* Obama released his tax forms (McCain released his, but not his wife's. Very convenient.)

Reasons not to vote for McCain:
* Hot tempered, trigger happy temperament.
* Admitted and well known for being unfaithful during his first marriage. He's got a bad track record here.
* Pandering to the very constituents he criticized eight years ago. What does he really stand for?
* Backtracked on torture
* Supports mortgaging tax cuts for future generations to pay
* Reported more than $100,000 in personal credit card debt with his wife. Don't want him to bring his "credit card" mentality to running the country.
* "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran"
* 100 years in Iraq

I'm going to vote for Obama because i'm tired of the old white men screwing things up. Let's see what a black man can do in the white house for a change. He can't screw thing's up worse than Bush has. Everyone talks about experience but if you think about it does anyone have enough experience for that job until they actually win and do the job for a while. The job I started a few months ago everyone thought i couldn't do the job because I wasn't experienced. I had to prove them all wrong and I believe Obama will do the some.

For the record I am white and I look at everyone the same color doesn't matter to me.

Ditto to what DebraP and Judy said. Well done!!!

WOW DebraP, very, very well said!!

I despise George W. and what this party has done, but I WILL NOT vote for someone that will not only fail to solve these issues, but make things worse because of their lack of experience. I actually "was" an Obama supporter in the early running until he started opening his mouth.

MY thinking has NOTHING to do with his SKIN color!! Get over the black/white issue! The only racism I see here are those pointing fingers at non Obama supporters using skin color as a determining factor which it IS NOT!. You're the ones that are Racist just like Sharpton, Jackson and all the rest that sit around just waiting to jump on something a white person says so they can twist it around and make it racism!

To all you spouting your Racism theory if this is reverse psychology.... perhaps it's working.... keep up the good work, McCain shouldn't have to do much more fundraising at the rate this theory will push people away from Obama! People are tired of every where we turn this gets thrown into the equation!

I wouldn't vote for Obama even if he was white. His color has nothing to do with it. I just don't trust him. I don't like McCain either but I will vote for him just to try and keep Obama out of office. And if McCain was black he would still get my vote.

Why is it when a white person says something negative about a black person they are called bigots but if a black person says something about a white person....that seems to be okay. What's the difference??? It's RACISM!!! It seems no white person can have an opinion anymore without someone yelling "Bigot, racist, call the NAACP, I'll sue you, call Jesse Jackson".

There will always be racism in this country from both the whites and the blacks and isn't that sad.

All you Confederate flag waving, Toby Keith and George W. Bush worshipping morons will just have to get use to the fact that the greatest country in the world will soon be having a black president. It's gonna happen. Your kids aren't bigots like you are.

Go Obama.

JW, this says it all from your link: "Published by the same group that brought you "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry"
Another slanted hatchet job to poison the political process with lies, innuendo, and backed by shady big money interests in an attempt to convince people to vote against their interests. You can tell from the ad that the author has an agenda and will not fairly present Obama's character or views.

Below is a link to a non-partisan site that clearly exposes the nasty smear campaign against Barak Obama using e-mail forwards.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp

Most of the e-mail forwards I've received on him are pure lies. These people are employing the so-called "spaghetti strategy": Throw everything and anything at the wall and see what sticks. These political tactics are immoral and anti-American.

I challenge you to vote for Obama or McCain based on the issues they support, not some stupid caricature created by partisans of either party or candidate.

As I stated before, I will have no further comment on the subject, and I will stick to what I have already said. I did want to supply you all with a very interesting link to look at.

I am originally from Chicago, which is a Democratically run city and has been for years and years. One of the most corrupt cities in the United States....This book is worth a read, if you choose not to read it, then you deserve what you get by not educating yourself. Just copy and paste the link below in to your browser and read the excerpt, you also owe it to youselves to read the whole book.

http://shop.newsmax.com/shop/index.cfm?page=products&productid=610

Portland Fan - Regarding local election, I think the seats that will be up for re-election are Mayor Wilber, Councilman Bratton, Dwyer, and Callis. Callis has previously commented that he probably wouldn't be running for another term..... I doubt he will stick to that! Maybe he will update us on his status.

The Bush presidency has been a disaster.Hopefully this new movie, I.O.U.S.A., will have an impact on this election.

http://www.iousathemovie.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBo2xQIWHiM

Description of the movie: "Wake up, America! We're on the brink of a financial meltdown. I.O.U.S.A. boldly examines the rapidly growing national debt and its consequences for the United States and its citizens. Burdened with an ever-expanding government and military, increased international competition, overextended entitlement programs, and debts to foreign countries that are becoming impossible to honor, America must mend its spendthrift ways or face an economic disaster of epic proportions."

You know, when you think about it...Does it really matter who wins, McCain or Obama? Do we really believe one main is going to change the society we live in?
No matter who wins the election, we're still going to pay high prices for gas. Do we really think that prices are going to fall to $2.50 a gallon just because Obama was elected? Do we really think the economy is going to improve just because McCain is elected.
It's not worth all the hassle, guys. I am trying to be a realist. It doesn't matter who's president, I am not sure anyone can help us very much now.
Wow, I can't believe it's gotten to that point in society!

JW if you think you can do a better job than OBAMA then why aren't you running for President. You're someone that think's you know everything and what is best for everyone don't you. I'll just say that I'm grown up and very quailfied at making my own decisions at who i want to vote for. Go ahead and vote for McCain if you want and I'll blame you like i do everyone that voted for bush. I also know where to pay taxes since my spouse and I sent them 120,000.00 in the last ten years.

Before i leave let me say I was around during the Carter years.

OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA

I hate how these cute little soundbites that communicate nothing are dumbing down this election. For example, "If Obama is elected, it will be Jimmy Carter's second term." This makes as much sense as saying "if John McCain is elected, it will be Herbert Hoover's second term."

On the local government scene, we will have to vote on four of our councilmen in the upcoming election. I think the four up for relection are Meadows, Hobdy, Callis and Wilber. I think all four will be re-elected with relative ease!

The more you let the government do, the less freedom you have.

JW - I'm with you, I also think we will be much worse later than we are now if Obama is elected. I cringe at the thought. As I've noted before this is a sad election year for the US when this (Obama & McCain) is the best we have to offer..... what's next!

Well, I am going to make one further comment and I an finished with this subject.

First of all, you all can believe what you want, but if Obama is elected, it will be Jimmy Carter's second term. I suspect that some of you were not around when Jimmy carter was president, BY FAR, the worst President of my lifetime.

Secondly, If Obama is elected (Not going to happen), I am going to keep a like to this and in 2 years when we are in worst shape than we are now, and you all realize that this man is a wolf in sheeps clothing, I will be the first to come back here and YELL I told you so.

You want to pay Higher taxes, why don't you do just that. I can give you the address to send you check to, I'll bet you won't do it.

If you want to vote of Obama, that is your choice, if he is elected, you'll get what you deserve!!!

Im Out!

JW I have a job and pay plenty of taxes but if the government wants to raise my taxes then i would pay them and not worry about it. I don't have money problems and wound not even notice. Just like the rise in gas prices never affected me at all. I don't live Check to Check.

GO OBAMA GO

Copy & re-post from Front Page - August 2008

I know in theory socialism is meant to take care of everyone. If left up to some our poor and elderly would starve because their love of money. U knowwhen your family was poor they werentt paying their fair share by your standards

Posted by: just saying at August 8, 2008 06:23 PM

Copy & re-post from Front Page - August 2008

I used to identify with the Republican party. Then in the early 1990s, it began to dawn on me how short-sighted the Republican party was. The Reagan / Bush years took us from a national debt of 30 percent of GDP to nearly 70 percent of GDP. During the Clinton years we started to reverse that trend when we had a few years of surpluses and we weren't adding to the debt. The Bush years unfortunately have sent the country $7.7 trillion into debt. We are heading back to about 70 percent of GDP.

The Republican party has also made huge progress in destroying FDR's legacy program, the Social Security Program. They have continued to raid the social security surpluses to mask the even larger debt they are creating. The baby boom generation starts drawing social security checks this year and by the time the baby boomer juggernaut moves completely into retirement, the system will be pretty close to depleted at the rate the government is stealing from the system. Generation X will likely be the generation to pay into the social security system only to have it go broke by the time we are supposed to receive our first check.

I've got issues with the Democratic party also, with their insistence on large entitlement programs and their ideas to solve the health care crisis do not convince me. However, we will never improve on this problem with a Republican president as long as the Cult of Reagan and the "debt doesn't matter" mentality that is his legacy continues to rule in the Republican party's thinking.

Do we pay enough taxes? I would like them lower. When we go into debt to provide current workers and taxpayers tax breaks, we are merely shifting our tax burden to future generations. This is wrong. We should be improving our children's American inheritance, not destroying it.

We need to get back to surpluses and only cut taxes when we can find matching cuts. No spending cuts, no tax cuts.

I'm going to vote for Obama because we can't afford another Republican president. There is much he supports that I do not, but I believe he is the better choice.

Posted by: Prometheus at August 8, 2008 05:26 PM
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Whew! Sure is getting hot in here......

Posted by: Curious at August 8, 2008 02:54 PM
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Just Saying,

Do you actually live in the U.S?

In case you weren't aware, we already pay taxes. You act as though nobody does. In my opinion we pay too much in taxes. More taxes to the Gov't means less money in your pocket. Your okay with this? Oh, I see, it's okay with you, because it will make better roads, schools etc. Isn't that the same line we always get when it comes to more taxes? Seems as though its never enough.....Well it is enough. It's not that we don't want to pay taxes, it's that we want everyone to pay thier fair share. Those that earn less usually take more in terms of gov't programs. I pay more than 36% of my income to the Gov't. In my opinion if I have to pay 36%, so should you. I would guess you do not pay 36% of your income, probably much less....is that fair? No it is not. Is it fair that people who don't pay any taxes at all get Gov't help in terms of Welfare etc...with no expection of them in return? They don't pay any taxes at all....I DO!!!! They pay no taxes, yet get money back from the Gov't every year, and pay NO taxes. That is fair to you? There is something really wrong with that.

When I pay rediculous rates for health insurance only to see someone, who doesn't work, that could work, get the same thing for free....that is just wrong. That is MY Tax money in action...so not only am I paying for my own insurance, but my ill spent tax money is also paying for thiers!!!

You really have trouble with people you percieve as "rich".

Let me tell you something, I was raised in a very poor family, in fact when we lived in a house that was a borrowed house. We could have gotten help from the Gov't but chose not to.

When I came of age, I chose, did you get that...I CHOSE..not to live that way and I chose not to depend on the Gov't. I educated myself, and through very hard work, much risk and dilligence, I was fortunate enough to start my own successful business.

A very wise man, who was also successful once told me this....

Never let anyone make you feel ashamed of success, we all have the same choices in life to make, we all have the same opportunity, some chose different, and are not as successful. That is not your fault.

My point is, if life is that miserable, why in the world would you want to give more control to the Gov't? Every thing they touch turns to junk, for example Medicare etc....

You have to take the initiative and change it yourself, not elect someone because you have this perception that they are the saviour, come to meet all your needs. That is not going to happen.

Did I read correctly...You said Socialism isn't so bad after all? Perhaps you should study up on the fall of socialism in Russia and other countries, it has never worked and has failed every time it was attempted, many times at the cost of its people who wound up poor and destitute....is that what you want?

I sure hope not! Be careful, you just might get what you vote for, and it may not be what you thought it would be.

Remember, a Gov't that has the power to give you everything also has the power to take it all away....is that what you want?

Posted by: JW at August 8, 2008 02:52 PM
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Well for me, I would consider schools a social program, many hospitals receive tax money and I'm sure each of us has a relative or friend on social security or welfare. Saying you're going to lower taxes is just political propoganda. Without it, we'd have nothing, or will all the rich people out of the goodness of their hearts decide to build roads and schools for us? Better yet, would their be any rich people without taxes? Doubtful.

Posted by: just saying at August 8, 2008 01:38 PM
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How many working taxpayers depend on social programs? I know when I worked for a company, I didn't rely on any. If we small business owners own our real estate we help pay for infrastructure with property taxes. I know I pay more in taxes now being self-employed with employees than I did when I worked for someone else.

Posted by: notalwaysfromaroundhere at August 8, 2008 01:32 PM
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As a "small business owner", what percentage of your income comes from taxpayers? Taxpayers who use streets to get to your business, that were paid for with tax money. But you're basically saying it's OK for you to make money off taxpayers, marking up the price of service or product on whatever it is you sale, but it's not OK for the government to ask you to pay some taxes to support infrastructure and social programs that those taxpayers you profit off of depend on.
I don't know, maybe socialism isn't that bad after all...

Posted by: just saying at August 8, 2008 09:15 AM
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Youre a Idiot,

all I can say is Your An Idiot.

You don't know me, you have no idea what I pay in taxes. By the way I do have a job and it appears that it is YOU, who needs to get a Job. I am a small business owner who pays over 36% of my income to the Gov't. What % of your income do you pay? I would guess it is much less than I or other business owners pay.

I think you are probably coming in to this blog under several different names with the intention to do nothing more than provoking people.

You said:
"Maybe the truth is that most of the people in this town are still racist."

So if someone does not vote for Obama, its because they are racist? Just remember it was YOU who brought that up.

If you are alright with paying higher taxes....go right ahead, break out your checkbook and go for it...in fact why don't you send that check in today? Im going to guess you won't do it...either because your talking out of both sides of your head, or you don't have a job and want the rest of us to pay more taxes so you can continue to take your gov't handout!!!

Posted by: JW at August 8, 2008 08:17 AM

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JW It looks like someone guessed it right you don't want to pay your part do you. Stop crying about your income like anyone cares if you have trouble paying your taxes. If you don't like it get a job like the rest of us and stop crying.

Maybe if you talk about socialism enough you can convince someone that you think you know what your talking about.

Maybe the truth is that most of the people in this town are still racist.

Posted by: Youre a Idiot at August 7, 2008 10:26 PM

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DC,

Your a rather presumptive person aren't you?

My income or lack thereof is none of your business. Trust me I do more than pay my part, you see those of us that are self employed are actually penalized for it. The governament takes money that we, the self employed, could be using to hire more people, that called employment.

If Obama is elected, our taxes get raised, guess what that means, people like me, small business people will pay more in taxes and in turn will have to let some of our employees go in order to afford to pay the taxes. That means higher unemployment. YOU my friend are the one who needs to get your facts straight.

If you want Obama to win that is your choice, at one time I was also an Obama supporter but had my eyes opened when he started in on the whole Tax the rich mentality.

If this man wins, we will be in big trouble in many ways. This country will instantly take a huge step towards Socialism, in case you don't know what that is....look up the word "Communism" in your dictionary.

Posted by: JW at August 7, 2008 05:11 PM
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There are bad people at all levels of society, so you can surely point out flawed people. You paint any with money as all bad. Money is not the root of all evil--the LOVE of money is. Some have wealth and do not pay their fair share and are not charitable, but many are, and many have absolutely earned their wealth--even if they inherit wealth, it will go away in a hurry if they are incapable of managing it. I also know plenty of people who are poor but work hard but I also know plenty of poor people who have not because they work not and they aren't interested in bettering their life.

Secondly, I don't care if Obama is pink and purple polka dotted or his name is Potato Head. There's no racism or intolerance there--just opposition to his idea of what this country needs and what this country stands for. Just because he's black does not mean that those who disagree with his ideas are racist or intolerant. The issues are the issues and he stands on the wrong side of the issues that matter to me; so does McCain on quite a few of them. I'm not happy with the choices but I will weigh the issues and figure out who will best represent my ideals as the leader of this country.

Posted by: mg62 at August 7, 2008 12:57 PM
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Earning it? I guess farmers who get paid not to grow stuff earn it. I guess people who are born with a silver spoon in their mouths earn it. I guess lazy managers who sit around while their employees bust their butts for 8 bucks an hour earn it. Just like Bush earned it, huh? Just like McCain earned it with his rich, beer distributing wife? Where's the moral right on that issue? I hear so many quick to question Obama because of his name and other racist and intolerant agendas, but they don't want to talk about McCain.
There are lots of rich people who truly did earn it, but there are also several who took advantage of their fellow Americans to get their wealth.
I look at taxes like a Biblical reference, to whom much is given, much is expected.

Posted by: just saying at August 7, 2008 12:08 PM
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Unfortunately Obama's definition of rich keeps getting smaller and smaller. Last year he and Hillary were talking about millionaires as "rich," then it was $500,000--last number I heard from Obama was $250,000. If he wins, by the time he he figures out what it is going to cost to pay for all these plans that he has, I suspect it will be anyone making over $50,000 (and I'm pretty sure that includes a lot of government employees) may be classified as "rich" and thus subject to having more of their money taken away and given to those who won't work. I'm tired of people saying that those who support anybody but Obama must be rich and obviously not paying enough taxes. Using that same warped logic, I guess conversely it is true that if you support Obama, you must be poor and consequently you plan on getting your share of the redistributed wealth from government handouts rather than earning it.

Posted by: mg62 at August 6, 2008 11:30 PM
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I hope taxes go up so i can get a raise from my government job. GO OBAMA GO LOL

Obama wants to tax the rich and I'm not rich so I don't care. Get your facts Straight JW or are you rich and just don't want to pay your part.

I also like the fact that OBAMA wants to get us out of Iraq unlike McCain. I've been to Iraq and agree we need to be out and they need to control their own country. If any of you think we need to stay then go join the military and volunteer to go over there.

Posted by: DC at August 6, 2008 10:25 PM
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just saying,

You kidding right?

I really believe you need to educate yourself about corporate america that you seem to think is the big bad wolf. Without corporate america, you would not have a job.

You think with higher taxes you get more services? So you think somehow the government should be in control of more?

Just remember, a Government that has the power to give you all you need, also has the power to take it all away.

If you want to pay more taxes, by all means break out your checkbook and go for it.....I would rather have less gov't interference in my life.

Posted by: JW at August 6, 2008 02:43 PM
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Read this book and it will make you really question what Obama is up to.

The Obama Nation by Jerome Corsi

Posted by: DebraP at August 6, 2008 09:53 AM

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But you can afford another Republican to ruin our economy even more? Makes no sense, at least you get services with higher taxes, instead of seeing your current taxes go to feed the wallets of corporate America, which in turn takes its jobs overseas.

Posted by: just saying at August 6, 2008 09:34 AM

PLUS.....a vote for Obama is a vote for higher taxes.

As a self-employed individual, I can not afford higher taxes, it will literally put me out of business.

Posted by: JW at August 6, 2008 08:43 AM

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Must be Obama used Oprah to get his face in the media, Michelle Obama I have no use for..... sorry but her "for the first time I am proud of my country" comment really sat wrong with me.

Posted by: Judy at August 5, 2008 02:34 PM
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Well I have a friend that is a relative of Oprah and she really dislikes Obama. She told me a few weeks ago that Michelle Obama cant stand Oprah. Remember a few months ago Oprah and Obama was everywhere together, now they are never seen together. When she told me that I was like yea you have a point.

Posted by: billyg at August 5, 2008 02:16 PM
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Neither candidate holds any interest to me, as much as I want change, Obama will not do it, he is too full of waffles and zip on real experience. Unless he choses a super VP nominee he is out of the picture, (maybe it will be Oprah lol), and McCain is same ole, same ole, sad election day this year.

Posted by: Judy at August 5, 2008 07:38 AM
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I was leaning towrads Obama, but I am now in McCain's court and here is why.

Anyone who looks at the country suffering with high gas prices and offers a solution of properly inflating tires and getting a tune up...is way out of touch to me. On top of that, going over to other countries and speaking and acting as though he is already President, really bothered me. He absolutely lost me for good, I am voting for John McCain.

Posted by: JW at August 4, 2008 08:35 PM
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Panther Fan,
I'm not sure which way I'm gonna vote yet either but there are some other candidates running besides McCain and Obama. I've been doing some research on Bob Barr and Wayne Root, the Libertarian Party candidates.

Posted by: Tim at August 3, 2008 11:01 PM